Faulty Brake Switch?

[brianszubinski]

Yesterday my wife took the moped to the store, when she got back on it, it would not even attempt to start. Pushed it home and since then here is what i have figured out.

Depressing either brake does NOT cause the brake light to come on. This lead me over to the Starter relay switch. If i remove the starter relay switch and bypass it by making a connection between the two red wires, the bike starts right up. When i put this switch back in, it does nothing.

Does this sound like a faulty starter relay switch? or should the brakes still be lighting? I have dismantled the starter relay,and it looks to be fine. What am I missing here? is there a Brake switch that I have yet to locate? or a ground I should have checked?

any insight would be greatly appreciated. The blinkers work fine, its just the brakes and the electric starter. Bike is an 86 honda spree nq50 (no kickstart).

[mousewheels]

> Depressing either brake does NOT cause the brake light to come on
See diagram below. At least one brake switch must be activated to provide power to the starter relay coil. Since the scooter is suddenly not starting and the brake light is not functional, that's a good place to focus upon.



-- Generic starter power troubleshooting --
Use a test light or DMM for troubleshooting numbers match the picture.

1) Relay coil 'high side'
Connect test lamp to G/Y at the starter relay. Turn on ign, Pull either brake handle. Test lamp should light.

2) Start Button/Relay coil 'low side'
Connect test lamp to Yellow/Red stripe wire at starter relay.
a) Pull the handbrake with ign on as in test 1. Test lamp should light.
No light? - bad relay coil, broken wire connection.
b) Keep the handbrake pulled, and press the 'Start' button, test light should go off. Light on --> fix starter switch or wiring in start button circuit.

3) If the above tests were ok, put test light on Red with White stripe wire on relay output, Activate brake and start button. No power -> Bad Relay

[brianszubinski]

As always noiseguy, I really appreciate the help.

Currently I cannot get the g/y to get the test light to go on at all. It appears there is zero power coming down that wire. Any other suggestions? I will trace this diagram out now and see if I am mossing something.

Any help is appreciated

Thank you

[mousewheels]

Currently I cannot get the g/y to get the test light to go on at all. It appears there is zero power coming down that wire. Any other suggestions? I will trace this diagram out now and see if I am mossing something.

That's good - there are not many areas left to troubleshoot. Components in the Orange and ground in the pic below should cover it.

1) On the off chance there is a ground issue, your test light should have one end on the battery '-' terminal rather than frame or engine ground
2) Check your other electrical accessories - Horn, turn signals and taillight. If all are out then look at the fuse and ignition switch
3) If all above is good, check each brake light switch, and connections to the stop light/relay coil.

Starter_Circuit_2.jpg (55.87 KiB) Viewed 9796 times

[brianszubinski]

OK bossman. Thank you again. This (hopefully last) question seems silly, but where on the bike are these switches located? I see towards the end of the manual it shows me the wiring diagram - but I still don't know where to find the two switches on the bike. Are they in the front end? in under the Speedometer and whatnot? or are they towards the rear with the rest of the switches and i can't find them? I have followed the g/y all the way up and into the brakes - was that the right direction to look?

I checked the ground issue, and all seems fine there. Blinkers, horn - all those work fine too.

you said:
If all above is good, check each brake light switch, and connections to the stop light/relay coil.

Where is the stop light/relay coil?

I feel like it is somewhere in those switches - just need to find them and see what shook loose.

Thanks as always, you prove this forum is the best community for help

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

You will find the brake switches if you follow the wire to the brake handles.

[brianszubinski]

is it a real switch? i have followed it, i see G/Y coming out of the brake assembly on the handlebars - is it built into that? I follow that wire all the way back and i don't encounter any switches - one connection just under the speedo, but nothing i would consider a "switch"

Google searching for a picture of this switch isn't helping me much either.

any insight?

[swimmingfree]

the switch is up in the break lever ..
swimmingfree

[brianszubinski]

OK fair enough. Seems kind of odd they would both go out same time no? I swear I am missing something obvious.

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings;

The switches are tiny, and if disassembled by some ham-fisted previous owner, both could have been damaged. If not, let's Presume front & rear brake wires join together at some point. Between that junction and the brake lamp will be the fault.

[brianszubinski]

OK. Final Recap. Before I go buying two new brake switches, I figured I would recap everything one last time and see if you guys can confirm I am not missing something.

Wife took moped to store. Comes out of store, will not start. Turns on. Blinkers work. horn Works. Just 0 attempt to start.


I removed the starter relay. By "jumping" the relay and connect y/r and r/w the bike starter kicks on and the bike starts.

I followed the black ignition wires up under the speedometer. They lit the test lamp both sides. I then followed black into the front brake assembly. (my assumption is the switch is the black portion rooted into the brake assembly) The black wire going into the assembly was live on both sides, but the g/y coming out on both sides is dead. I would also like to note that the rear brake switch smelled like fried plastic - so I can only assume that its fried on that side at least.

Couple of questions here. Could I have a short in the g/y somewhere that caused both brake switches to fault out? or was it sheer luck they both went out same time?

If I "jump" the black live wire connect to the g/y - would that confirm that everything is fine and the switches are just shot? I don't want to connect these two if it is going to fry anything, so I figured I would ask first.

And finally, If confirmed - Do I have to buy an all new brake assembly? I didn't see a way to remove that switch. Either way, do any of you have the parts for sale?

Thanks yet again,

Brian

[mousewheels]

The black wire going into the assembly was live on both sides, but the g/y coming out on both sides is dead.

G/Y dead points to a switch issue on both sides, good troubleshooting

And finally, If confirmed - Do I have to buy an all new brake assembly? I didn't see a way to remove that switch.

The switch can be pressed out. BTW - I may have missed it but what model scooter is yours?.

Remove the brake lever, then press the from the wire side. You can use other brake assemblies for switch donors. Common controls like the Spree make lower cost donors than rare scooters. Wire splicing may be required to get the correct connector/wire length.

I would also like to note that the rear brake switch smelled like fried plastic - so I can only assume that its fried on that side at least.

That's the smell of doom. Be good to double check your fuse is the correct value before firing up a replacement switch. If the corrrect value fuse is blowing when the brakes are applied, likely there is a short in the stop lamp circuit.

If fuse is correct value is is possible that brake switch contacts were worn/high resistance. Given that, they could heat up and melt switch internals.
FYI - mouse pics of brake switch internals

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

The Recap gives this story a Moral: WIFE broke the scooter.
The question is how? Is the brake bulb stock?

[brianszubinski]

Oh man, you hit the nail on the head, and it wasn't her, it was me.

Tell me if this scenario makes sense. The rear brake assembly was falling apart two weeks ago. I replaced it, but during that process I shorted it out and blew the fuse. I took a 5 fuse out, and put a 15 fuse in. Could it be that over the course of 2 weeks, it slowly overloaded the switches until they burnt up? I believe the brake short has been fixed, but maybe it shorted out while my wife was driving it, and then when she tried to restart, it overloaded the front switches?


The spree is an 85 nq50. Great news they can be replaced. I will call around the city now looking for them.

is there a way to check the brake/stop light circuit before i install the new switches? (I will definitely be putting a 5 fuse back in). I just don't want to buy new switches just to blow them out again.

Kinda funny that it turns out I am the one that did it....i think.

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

Let's swear a Blood Oath never to tell her, boys.