Crankcase seal leaking?

[lakehouse]

I have a very low mileage, 1989 Elite with what I believe to be is a leaking crankcase seal on the left hand side of the engine. (The side with the drive belt and clutch on it.)I say this because on two occasions, I had to remove the cover, and found it to be coated with a black, very fine "powdery" like substance throughout the inside cover and components. On both occasions, I cleaned everything off with a brush, cleaning solvent, and compressed air before assembling. But after running for a few miles at the most, and removing the cover, it again was coated with what appears to be burnt exhaust deposits. My question is, is this really exhaust residue? And if the 25 year old seal is defective, can it be replaced without a total engine dismantle? The engine runs fine otherwise like it should. But now the belt and clutch is covered with "carbon dust" and is severely slipping with less than 5 miles on it since the last cleaning. Anybody have any ideas? I'd appreciate what your thoughts might be. And by the way, this is a 100% stock scooter and power train, without any modifications. And yes, the factory air box is in place, with a brand new OEM filter inside.
Thanks......

[DirtyE]

Sounds like belt "dust" from a belt wearing in.

[paulpauly7]

get a new belt and clean any rust of the drive face and rear pulley

[lakehouse]

The belt seems to be the unanimous cause from the good folks who responded to my posting. I do appreciate everyone's thoughts and responses. I'll get a new belt on order and headed this way, and hopefully I'll never have to deal with this issue again.

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

Quoth LakeHouse:

But now the belt and clutch is covered with "carbon dust" and is severely slipping with less than 5 miles on it since the last cleaning. Anybody have any ideas?

Well, I'm glad it's not your crank seals, but I don't think the Forum has covered why it's "severely slipping" in such short order... It sounds like you may have a belt that's very worn and narrow, for my first thought. "Solvent" cleaning the drive faces may vary. Paint thinner can leave an oily residue and/or start to soften and even decompose the rubber when it's subjected to the heat inside the cover. Finally, is it possible the rear pulley "Contra" spring has grown weak and isn't applying the tension the belt needs for a firm grip by the pulleys? With low miles that seems unlikely but give the rear pulleys a squeeze and try to gauge that.

Measure the width of your current belt. Use a digital caliper if you have one. If it's less than 15mm, it may not be firmly gripped betwixt the pulleys. If less than 14.5, you can practically spin the belt with your fingers. When that happens, the variator becomes the "Clutch" - like the old snowmobile drive system - and the rate of wear increases exponentially. When your new belt arrives, Re-clean but this time use pure Acetone on the pulley faces. Make sure the front pulley boss is the correct one and fully seated. Otherwise even a new belt won't be grabbed properly. Before remounting the pulleys, wash your hands thoroughly so you don't smear grease back on the faces. Be very careful mounting the outer front pulley. It's not uncommon for those very short splines to fail to engage properly, and then get mangled when you torque down the nut on the crank end. It's easier if you give the belt some slack in front by spreading the rear pulleys apart. If the splines are already chewed up, let us know. Someone here has a new or good crankshaft to replace it.

[lakehouse]

Thanks for the tips and the advice. And yes, I do have metric calipers that are extremely handy when working on imports of all kinds (as you well know). It was 22 degrees this morning when I woke, or I would have pulled the scooter apart to see what I have. It will have to wait until we get some more freaky warm days! For cleaning surfaces with no residue, as you say, acetone works great, but so does carb cleaner, brake cleaner, and electrical contact cleaner without leaving anything behind that would deteriorate a belt or cause slippage. (I normally have all 3 chemicals on hand.) I doubt that actual wear plays a role in anything in the clutch system since the scooter only has 500 since it rolled off of the showroom floor. I got it from the original owner, so I know the mileage that is shown is accurate. However, since it was stored outside, uncovered, rust may play a factor on any ferrous component in the system. I'll check all that out and see what the springs look like. And everything else too while I am at it. But I do appreciate the time you took to send me your thoughts and theories on my slippage and "dust" problems.

[lakehouse]

I finally put on some heavier clothes, and went out into the cold garage just pull down my Elite scooter to see if I could figure out what I need besides a new belt. No doubt in my mind my belt is kaput, as I cannot even come close to the measurements that Wheelman-111 gave me as a guide. You are stating that I should be between 14.5 and 15 mm in maximum width. My belt is a fairly consistent 10 (yes, TEN) mm, with a ragged looking outside edge. I think that is pretty much a no brainer, don't you?

Also, do you have any idea of what the thickness of the "drive shoes" should roughly be? (Just the composite liner itself.) Since I have never seen a brand new clutch, I have nothing to compare it to. It looks like it is about 1.75 mm thick, if that helps at all. I hate the thought of really needing to replace the entire clutch also, as I will be putting this low mileage scoot for sale when the weather gets warmer. I might just put a new belt on and see if it slips at all pulling my 200 pound frame up and down the driveway. Any other pearls of wisdom for me while I have it apart? I'd appreciate it if you could play a little more armchair quarterback for me with your thoughts. Thanks in advance, Wheelman-111.

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

The clutch shoe linings are pretty thin, even new. 1.75mm sounds like it'll last a long time yet, but the actual thicknesses should be in the Factory Manuals in that Forum section.

Yeah, with a a 10mm belt it's a miracle that it moved at all. The fix is cheap enough, and with a good grip on the belt your 200-pounds should be no problem at all up hills. Ride the thing before you decide to sell. You may find you grow fond of the nimble quick handling and spunky character.

[lakehouse]

Thanks for the quick response. I was just opening up my service manual when I saw that you have sent a response. My manual shows that a standard belt width is 11.4 mm, with a limit down to a 10.4 mm. So my belt has far exceeded those limits. Also, it's showing the clutch shoe thickness of being 3.5 mm and the service limit of 1.5 mm. I didn't even know that these specs were published, or I would have checked there first. DUH!

But we both agree that I should install a new drive belt, and see what happens. It's a fun scooter to ride, but I am in the process of finishing up a restoration on a 1970, 100cc. Honda Scrambler with 6062 original miles. And I have a 250cc. Hyosung MS3 scooter waiting in the wings to find out why it won't run. If the Elite had a variable speed drive, I might consider keeping it. But 28 MPH is the best I can get out of it at the moment.

Again, thanks for the comments and your help. If I still have massive slippage after installing a new belt, I'll do a posting in the forum. Wish me luck.......

[DirtyE]

Get your 89 up and running then sell it for a 94-01.

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

D'OH!! So it's an Elite "E". My belt specs were for the Elite "non-E" which are variated like the Aero. Yours is Spree-ish, so forget about what I said about variators. Hmm, not sure why a low-mileage scooter would have chewed through a belt AND clutch linings so quickly. Increased drag from some previous owner riding on the brakes?

[lakehouse]

I would account for the premature wear as being due to good old fashioned rust! Previous owner said that the last time it ran (before I "inherited" it) everything was OK. But he got tired of replacing turn signal and brake light lenses, and batteries, from his grandkids constantly laying it down. When the battery gave up the ghost, he just haphazardly put it down outside of his shop with no cover of any kind over it. That was about 10 to 15 yeas ago. Although I did clean as mush rust as I could from where the belt makes contact with the sheaves, it looks like some of it came back to eat away at the belt. I'll pick up some rust neutralizer while I am out today, and see if I can't eliminate the rust once and for all. I'll chuck the pieces up in my bench lathe and polish them until it as smooth as a baby's butt! Anyone who has tinkered with anything mechanical knows how much damage can incur from rust. In fact, the pinion gear on the kick starter that engages with the sector gear was so rusted in place, that it took a torch and a big pipe wrench just to break it loose from the aluminum housing. (I let my local, friendly motorcycle shop attack that problem, as he knows when to take the heat off and stop pulling on the wrench!)

Regarding someone riding the brakes......good question. Never know what a group of six kids will do, all under the age of 10, creating havoc by riding on a couple acre lot! LOL

I have got the impression that the Elite E is a bit of an odd ball when it comes to finding replacement parts. Rarely, if ever, do I ever see a parts list that states "will also fit Elite E model scooters". I have run across that in looking for a belt yesterday. At least the belt I took off is an OEM belt, as it has HONDA stamped on it and their part number. My local Honda dealer says the scooter is too old for them, and they don't have any printed material on the Elite E for replacement parts. I may just have to take a chance and get a belt for a SB50 or similar on line. I take it this was not a very popular model for Honda to build and market. Just my luck! LOL Thanks again, Wheelman-111. Keep warm!

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

I'm pretty sure the NQ50 Spree belt is the same as your 1989 SB50 Elite "E". The Spree was incredibly popular and still is near and dear to many on this very HondaSpree Forum. You may be more challenged in finding body parts, but most of the engine parts are Spree-ish. Your manifold is bigger, the pipe is better and the SB Elite ES has been known to hit 35 in pretty much completely stock form for these accessories, whereas Sprees seldom aspire to 30.

It's a bit chilly in Deepinnaharta for the past couple of days, but weekend forecast is for low 70s and sunny. Mine begins now!

[lakehouse]

Thanks to a couple of days of warm temperatures here in North Texas, I was able to pull apart, clean, wire brush, and Emory, all the belt running surfaces. I even neutralized the rust that was in places that I couldn't get to by hand.Everything is now free of rust and burrs, and hopefully I won't have to do this particular job again. The local parts store had the exact belt I needed at a fraction of the cost that a Honda dealer wanted. After reassembly, the scooter runs just fine with no clutch slip at all. Sure is fun running around my front yard at a blistering 15 MPH! LOL

Thanks for all the help and advice, and maybe this belt will last a lot longer than the OEM unit that I replaced. Catch y'all later on.....