'85 Honda Elite Won't turn over, won't idle, won't run

[diggidydylan]

Heya Forums! First off, I had done a quick search, it seems your big brother 150 is allowed to post questions and help here? If not or if there's another forum or section ya'll could point me towards, I would be grateful.

Just as an intro here, I am quite mechanically inclined. I have about 12 years of bicycle mechanic experience and I have access to a whole lineup of shop tools including but not limited to compression tester, vacuum tester, all sockets, wrenches, etc. Tools and knowledge of touching tools are not my issue. Carburetors and knowledge of touching carburetors are my issue.

The bike has mostly been sitting for years before my boss sold to me. He had replaced the battery, replaced the carb with a Chinese repro, and had it running. I saw photographic evidence of it running before handing it off.


I think (famous last words) I am on track to getting this running properly, but I want to bounce ideas off the pros here first.


I can go into a long winded post of what all I've done to it so far, but the long and short of it is: it no longer turns over and it no longer runs. I have determined: the combustion chamber is not getting gas. It is getting spark. The bike will turn over on carb cleaner shot into the air-intake, it'll even idle for a moment before running out of that precious nectar.

What I have determined:

1) The gas tank is rusty. I pulled the carb and the idle jet was clogged. I pulled the float and opened the cap, there's loads of fine rust, no chunks or flakes, but lots of fine particles. The jets on this carb, especially the idle jet, are fine, very very very fine. I have ordered some Vapo-Rust to clean the tank and some Red Kote to seal it. I'll have a good look at the fuel strainer and petcock. Oh yeah, pretty sure boss-man replaced the petcock at some point. I'll make sure that's all gravy up top.

2) Fuel gets to the carb. There is vacuum to pump it there. It fills the bowl. Nothing is clogging the bowl needle to keep the floats jammed up. The carb itself is new, from China. We have played around with some of the basic external adjustments like fuel/air mix (which is normally plugged on the factory carbs), and idle resting position. These have proved to be inconclusive. Fuel gets to the carb, but doesn't get past. The carb bowl is clean. It's a new carb, there's no chance for gas varnish to build up.

3) I understand what each carb vacuum hose does to at least a rudimentary level. The coolant side of things is a bit crustier, but coolant and oil flow through them--right? It's not leaking anywhere, and they're unrelated to fuel so I'm not worried about it. I have checked multiple different times to ensure each time that each hose is connected where it should be. I have replaced the cracked and crummy hoses.

4) The carb insulator suffers from crack. I had done the cheapo vacuum test where you spray it with carb cleaner. It didn't improve idle/ turn over ability, but I suppose it's inconclusive. I've ordered a new Chinese knockoff because the OEM version is $40, knockoff is $8. Too good to be true?? Has anyone messed around with these? Is a few small cracks in this enough to completely muck up turning over?

5) There is spark! It shoots sparks all over the place! Well, really just in the combustion chamber. I ordered a new ignition coil because it wasn't getting spark. Also a new NGK plug, they're installed and they work great!

6) There's a new air filter installed as well. Currently the air box isn't hooked up at all for easier removal of the carb to diagnose, etc. Would too much air lean out the small amounts of fuel too much? I can't imagine it would. But hey, the jets are small, it's not getting much fuel. Clearly something is going wrong. Is it too much air?

7) Compression is phenomenal. 150 psi. I guess the original owner was a bit of a tinkerer and he rebuilt the motor himself. Again, it ran fine multiple times until I started messing with it. Compression test would tell us if it had a stuck valve or ring damage or anything else major. We're all clear here, yes?

The only thing I had done before it stopped turning over was change the tires. When I was reinstalling the rear tire I solved a stuck brake issue. I have since made sure the kill switch was working as it should. It's my understanding the kill switch that's connected to the brake cable only interacts with the starter motor. That start starter motor purrs. It sounds great. Oh mama.

In conclusion: There is spark, there is compression, fuel gets 95% of the way there. Is it a simple vacuum issue? A complex vacuum issue? Did I leave a sponge inside the patient?

I can give a more detailed timeline of events with what all I've done if you like. You're probably sick of reading all this though.

Any and all insight would be appreciated. Thank you for reading.

Best,
Dylan

[jakubman1]

Post a pic of the cracked insulator. I may have a nice spare here

[Meatball]

it seems your big brother 150 is allowed to post questions and help here? If not or if there's another forum or section ya'll could point me towards, I would be grateful.

This is a mainly a 50cc forum but some members own or have knowledge of larger cc's. You might try this forum as well.... http://motorscooterguide.net/Forum/ ....they have a section devoted to 125cc+ Honda. Welcome to the pages and good luck with your scoot!

[motormike]

You are certainly welcome to present us with your CH150 questions dylan.
I recently replaced the OEM carb (ch150) with a clone version, for cheap, and the result was perfect.
I admit some surprise.
The symptoms you describe point to the rust in the tank causing your clogging of idle jet,
as well as the tank screen on the outlet.
That fine, dust-like rust is troublesome, and can stop up passages quickly.
Seems that you are already on top of this, carry-on... ...mm

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

A small crack in the carb insulator lets in a least a wisp of air on every intake stroke. The absence of an airbox causes a further lean issue. Maybe separately the issues wouldn't prevent starting, but together? Try sealing the insulator temporarily with some sort of Goo, and reinstall the airbox and give it a try? If that fails, follow Mike O' th'Motor's advice and clean the carb and the rest of the fuel system.

Also, just a hunch, I dunno how much work it is to pop the cam cover, but what if the P.O. didn't set the cam timing correctly? Should be easy enough to check the dots at TDC and be sure.

[kjkenney]

I own the 150 deluxe and had similar problems upon purchase. Put the airbox on, po had drilled holes in my airbox and it did not like the extra air. Insulator cracking will give you issues for sure, again extra air. Idk about the chinese carb since its newer but the oem Keihin needed a good three cleans before i got it running solid. Check the bystarter port as well, that was a big issue for me. As far as timing, that can be set on the left side of the case, opposite side of exhaust, from the outside so that is definitely worth checking as well especially since its a really quick look-at. Set the carb to factory specs first, guessing settings will get you nowhere. Once its running then adjust. Lastly, two scooters have had this issue for me now, clean the contacts on the kill switch to ensure its creating a solid circuit when starting. These will absolutely still let you try to turn it over in the OFF position so it can be misleading when it still turns the motor. God speed sir, i love this scoot to the moon and back. Its become more of a daily driver for me than my stupid car and has become about 100x more dependable than it.