1997 Elite: Spark and gas, no start? HELP!

new2elite · Post by **new2elite** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:52 pm

I'm new to the scooter world and new to this site. I do ride quads, and am a strong honda fan. I know the basics of a fourstroke and most motor parts, but the scooters giving me problems. I traded my xbox 360 for a 1997 Elite SR with just under 2k miles(hows that deal sound, just 360 and controller) however it isnt running but was running within a week before.
Heres the details as i know them: It didnt have an airbox and had a K&N clamp on style directly on the carb. The kid was kick starting it and knocked the filter off and it wouldnt run (guess theyre pretty jetting picky?) so what the guy decided to do was to put a scruff pad ( like a green 3m pad made for cleaning pans) on the carb and zip tie it on. so it had taht type stuff in it and wouldnt start. So i took the carb off and cleaned it, it had alotta gunk in the bottom, i scraped all that out, washed it in our parts washer for a bit, then blasted with carb cleaner. Put it back on, still wouldnt run. It didnt even try to run, it just cranks over, doent spit or sputter. So then i thought maybe something in the reeds, so i took them out (broke the gasket to, is it possible to make one?) and there was soem small stuff in there, but what i noticed when i was kick starting it was that fluid, like gas and oil, was over flowwing out of the reed opening, so i took the motor off and dumped it. still no fire. and thats where im at now. Oh, and its getting good spark, has a new plug, and ive been tryn to start it by sprayin starting fluid in the reed hole(have the reeds out) and still no fire. Any ideas? sorry for long write up, and thanks in advance!

dgsoles · Post by **dgsoles** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:59 am

Ok, I'm a beginner here with 2 stroke engines, but I was having the same problem. Just remember: air, gas, spark, compression. Without your reed-valves on, your compression will be nil (oh, and your engine will be impossible, I mean impossible, to start). 2-strokes do not have any valves to hold the compression in, they rely on a combination of timing and reed valves to do the trick (and also from backpressure from the exhaust). So, inspect your reed valve (Clean it carefully, then, take a VERY bright flashlight in a dark room, and see if you can see ANY openings at all, even a few thousandths of an inch will kill the starting process). If you don't want to wait for a new gasket to come in, just for a temporary fix, use some RTV blue sensor safe gasket maker (get it from Wal-Mart or Meijer or Autozone) and seal the reed valve to the crank-case with that. Next, take your spark-plug out, pop some 2-stroke oil the combustion chamber (about 2 tablespoons) and turn the engine over for a few strokes. Pop in another tablespoon of oil, put your spark plug back in, re-attach your carb (or just shoot some more starter-fluid into your crank) and try to fire it up. I'm betting compression is the problem. Also, these carbs are VERY finicky, I'm betting that your carb isn't as clean as you think. The idle-jets clog very easily. You should see a pin-* of light through it once it's clean, very hard to spot. Also, take your emulsion tube (inside where the main jet screws in) out, don't use anything metal to do it, and clean that. And, lastly, your muffler and/or exhaust port may be plugged. Take your muffler off, take a flashlight and check your exhaust port, if you turn the motor over by hand, you should see your piston moving up and down. Next, pucker up and try to blow some air through your muffler, see if you can feel it out of the other end. If the guy before you was running bad oil, it can get plugged up quick. Oh, and BTW, I'm still having problems with my '86 Spree.....floods when running....dang thing. Soaking my carb in cleaner as we speak. Ok, there's my opinion, if I think of anything more, I'll let you know.

Oh, yes, and not having your air-filter attached shouldn't affect the starting, it'll just run quite lean at idle (NEVER run for any extended amount of time lean). For testing, it's ok to have no air-filter, but I highly advise getting a new one from a Honda Powersports dealer, they're only about $3.

new2elite · Post by **new2elite** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:19 pm

hey thanks for the write up dgsoles. Im going to try all that tomorrow on my day off, but i was also curious if it couldnt be like some kinda wiring/safety type feature? I know about the brake safety starter switch, the kill switch, and the key, but is that it? like if it'll crank and get spark itll start? And you said it WILL NOT even try running with the reeds off? that one will save me some definate time hahah. Oh and one more thing i was wondering, whats a good starting point on the fuel/air screw, like 2.5 turns out or so? well thanks again!

dgsoles · Post by **dgsoles** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:23 pm

I'm not very familiar with the elite engine, but I imagine that the brake switch is the only safety interlock as a barrier to starting. That and your kill switch, and ignition. If you're getting spark, that means that she ready to fire up. Also, you may want to check out the service manuals in the Tech Documents, they will tell you alot of info, like, for instance, if you even have the correct spark plug in the bike. I don't know the starting point for the idle mixture screw, with a spree it's about 1 1/2 turns out, it may be about the same for an elite. Better to start off too rich than too lean (as you turn the screw out, it leans your idle mixture).

Kenny_McCormic · Post by **Kenny_McCormic** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:15 pm

Check compression.

Clivester · Post by **Clivester** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:56 pm

You'll need the reeds in to get it to start, otherwise it will just keep blowing much of the fuel/air mixture back out of the manifold.

Clive.

chevyguyjay · Post by **chevyguyjay** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:19 pm

pop off your oil line and put a lil bit of oil in the sprark plug hole. crank it a lil bit with out the plug, then put the plug in and try starting it. the lil bit of oil will boost the compression and help it start faster. my guess, like kenny said, check the compression. rings might be wore out.

Dac · Post by **Dac** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:58 pm

Clivester wrote:You'll need the reeds in to get it to start, otherwise it will just keep blowing much of the fuel/air mixture back out of the manifold.

Clive.

yeah, you have to have the reeds on there for it to even try to start.

new2elite · Post by **new2elite** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:48 pm

so i just clean out the reeds with carb cleaner right? and how can i tell if it needs rings? it ran fine just like a week ago? also what oil should i put in it, hes been running some gas station stuff that i know isnt worth a crap.

Dac · Post by **Dac** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:41 pm

new2elite wrote:so i just clean out the reeds with carb cleaner right? and how can i tell if it needs rings? it ran fine just like a week ago? also what oil should i put in it, hes been running some gas station stuff that i know isnt worth a crap.

you want the reeds to have no gap at all. Just look at it, if there is any gape then you need new reeds.

If the reeds have no gap and everything looks good, put the reeds and the carb back on, then try to start it, if nothing still. Remove the spark plug and put a hair of oil in there. Kick it once, put in a new spark plug and kick it.

if it starts then that means your compression is low. Time for new rings, and posabily a new piston.

as for oil go to honda and buy some "Gn2" Its the best oil you can get.

new2elite · Post by **new2elite** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:04 pm

Got it running today! cleand the reeds out, and noticed there was some grit holding a piece of it open. cleaned them out real good, and put back in, made a gasket outta LocTite gasket maker, hooked up carb and got it started. I rode it once to see how it would run, keep in mind no filter still, and it ran alright up until about 15-20 where itd bog, anywhere past half throttle it would try to die. i suppose it needs jetted? what size main jet should i get with the clamp on filter?

Dac · Post by **Dac** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:10 pm

well, thats normal.

a stock elite will do that, whats happening is the elite is getting to much flow for the carb. i can prove it too! Go for a ride, when it starts bogging reach down and put your finger over about half the carbs opening. It should pick up speed fast.

The stock box is a great filter. But if you dont have one there is a few things you can try...
Put on your clamp on K&N filter, and put a sock over it. It will restrict it some more and might be just what you need. To much air is a bad thing, to little are is a bad thing, Play with it some till you get what works best.

Assuming the filter has This Shape to it. I have seen people take tape and wrap like 1/4 to 1/2 the filter in it, Blocking off how much flow can get in there.
But personal i would try the sock thing first, because the stock would also give more filtration.

Bear45-70 · Post by **Bear45-70** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:25 pm

Dac wrote:well, thats normal.

a stock elite will do that, whats happening is the elite is getting to much flow for the carb. i can prove it too! Go for a ride, when it starts bogging reach down and put your finger over about half the carbs opening. It should pick up speed fast.

The stock box is a great filter. But if you dont have one there is a few things you can try...
Put on your clamp on K&N filter, and put a sock over it. It will restrict it some more and might be just what you need. To much air is a bad thing, to little are is a bad thing, Play with it some till you get what works best.

Assuming the filter has This Shape to it. I have seen people take tape and wrap like 1/4 to 1/2 the filter in it, Blocking off how much flow can get in there.
But personal i would try the sock thing first, because the stock would also give more filtration.

I have to agree with Dac. The engine is leaning out and that is why it bogs. Covering half the intake restricts air flow there by enriching it. The aftermarket air filter will just make it leaner and run worse. Cheaper and easier to buy a new stock filter.

new2elite · Post by **new2elite** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:44 am

well I'm not opposed to stock, but id have to buy the air box, filter, and whole assembly. i got it with nothing at all attached to the carb. so I'm just spending like $10 on a clamp on style filter from a local shop. what kinda jet would be applicable for this? probably pretty big with the open air eh. + i think it needs a new jet anyways as this one has some corrosion and rust in it.

Bear45-70 · Post by **Bear45-70** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 1:31 pm

new2elite wrote:well I'm not opposed to stock, but id have to buy the air box, filter, and whole assembly. i got it with nothing at all attached to the carb. so I'm just spending like $10 on a clamp on style filter from a local shop. what kinda jet would be applicable for this? probably pretty big with the open air eh. + i think it needs a new jet anyways as this one has some corrosion and rust in it.

They show up used in the Wanted/For Sale Forum. Look and see what's there. Going after market is gonna cost more than just the filter. You will either spend hours restricting the aftermarket filter to duplicate the stock air flow or be rejetting and that's not easy or fun either or doing both. Unless you know what you are doing you can end up with it running better, but still too lean and a melted piton is a lot more expensive.