Spree 86 blowing lights

Samargh · Post by **Samargh** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:02 pm

Help please, this one is driving me demented.

The scoot is blowing both front and rear lights when running within a few seconds of turning them on.

Work done so far....

Stator has been replaced, battery is charging fine with expected voltages.

bike has been retrofitted witha kick start, so there is no longer an electric bystarter in the system... had been working fine since I purchased it almost a year ago with no problems on the headlights.

tried replacing the regulator, but had either a faulty one or the wrong model as it just drained the battery.

Voltage at the headlight is around 10V rms on idle, but as soon as you apply throttle it starts going way up, blowing at around 18v rms (obviously). Wide open throttle would give me a far higher reading.

please give clues, have been struggling for ages and no longer thinking clear on this one...

Wheelman-111 · Post by **Wheelman-111** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:15 pm

Greetings:

The answer may be contained in your question. It appears you need the correct and non-faulty regulator.

Samargh · Post by **Samargh** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:56 pm

So I was correct in working out from the circuit diagram that the main lights draw power through the regulator and not somewhere else?

mousewheels · Post by **mousewheels** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:38 pm

Couple of questions - then some comments.

Is this is Honda scooter? What model?

When was the stator replaced?
Did the headlight blowing start after that?

---
1) Headlight is powered by AC
2) Taillight power comes from the battery. So if you find the battery is charging fine with expected voltages, the taillight should not blow from overvoltage. Are still blowing taillights?

For the headlight blowing, if that started after the stator was replaced, double check that the wire bullet connectors from the stator are correctly connected to their mating wires.

The charge coil has a higher voltage. The regulator for battery charge requires a higher voltage than the battery to compensate for voltage drops in the rectifier and regulator circuitry.

Samargh · Post by **Samargh** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:05 pm

mousewheels wrote:Couple of questions - then some comments.

Is this is Honda scooter? What model?

When was the stator replaced?
Did the headlight blowing start after that?

---
1) Headlight is powered by AC
2) Taillight power comes from the battery. So if you find the battery is charging fine with expected voltages, the taillight should not blow from overvoltage. Are still blowing taillights?

For the headlight blowing, if that started after the stator was replaced, double check that the wire bullet connectors from the stator are correctly connected to their mating wires.

The charge coil has a higher voltage. The regulator for battery charge requires a higher voltage than the battery to compensate for voltage drops in the rectifier and regulator circuitry.

as in the title, its a (Honda) spree 86... NQ50H frame

Headlight blowing is the original fault, the stator was replaced after replacing the rectifier didn't work... that didn't work either.

About the tail light.. that may well have blown after I fitted the faulty/wrong regulator.

I say this because I've gone back and grabbed another regulator as per Wheelman's comment, and as soon as I fitted it the battery started discharging badly (to the point where I was getting sparking when I re-connected the earth wire..)

so either:-

1. The guy gave me another faulty/incorrect rectifier

2. the bike has been modified in some way to use a non standard rectifier.

in order to check this, I guess I need to check the model of the rectifier that was on the bike. It looks identical to the one in the manual (p14-6) and the numbers on the back read "SH515 - 12" and then on the line below "5.1".

Does this tally with anyone else?

mousewheels · Post by **mousewheels** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:04 pm

in order to check this, I guess I need to check the model of the rectifier that was on the bike. It looks identical to the one in the manual (p14-6) and the numbers on the back read "SH515 - 12" and then on the line below "5.1".

Does this tally with anyone else?

I've got either an Elite or a Gyro regulator in hand - it reads 'SN570A-12 5.7'

---
Samargh - I saw the NZ and searched - I find we were discussing your headlights last fall http://www.hondaspree.net/phpBB2/viewto ... +regulator

Sorry to hear your problem is still with you. I was wondering if you stator charge coil was tied to the headlight back then too. 18v at the headlight is very high.

---
For these Honda scooters - regulator drawing lots of current from the battery is a failure mode often caused by a reversed battery polarity. It can take out the regulator.

Also - a failed regulator has resulted in a current path from battery though the stator charge coil. That current has also occasionally caused the stator coil to fail.

The regulator could easily be bad as received from the guy, but wouldn't hurt to double check your battery polarity.
---

Kenny_McCormic · Post by **Kenny_McCormic** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:33 pm

Bad bleed resistor? Its sort of inside the frame, behind the tail light assembly.

timcat · Post by **timcat** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:37 am

can you show me a pic of how you plugged your by starter id like to think wax could be used but idont know yet

chevyguyjay · Post by **chevyguyjay** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:48 am

change out the rectifier.

Samargh · Post by **Samargh** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:18 am

Mousewheels - yeah, same thread, same problem.. I had to put fixing it on hold for relatives arriving, Xmas and getting married, so back to it now. Bettery polarity is definately correct... I'm begining to think he has been supplying equivalent parts that are of a different pin out than the one for my scoot. 2 regulators doing the same thing from the same guy smells less like bad parts than more like him getting his models wrong. Bear in mind original (presumed faulty) regulator is correctly charging the battery with exactly the same set-up as the other regulators..

Kenny - Ride me sideways! I never even knew that was there! have checked them and they are within a 20% tolerance of the markings (which is pretty standard for cheaper electroic components) but I haven't checked good continuity between them and ground to see if there is an open circuit. Is there another set of connectors elsewhere that I can unplug to check the resistance to ground? And is it open circuit that would give a higher voltage? looking at the service manual on P14-5, where would those bleed resistors go on the diagram?

Timcat - sorry, the kick start had been fitted when I bought it. If your are talking about plugging the top of your curb where the original bystarter would go then mine hasn't been plugged; its a different carb head than the one in the manual, presumably part of the same after market kit for the kick start.

Chevyguy - trying to, just want to make sure I'm getting the right part as the 2 supplied so far aree different to the original and are acting more abnormally than the supposed faulty one.

Samargh · Post by **Samargh** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:10 pm

AHA! this niggled me all night. I got up this morning, and have found 2 things.

If I pull the regulator completely, I still have power to the lights.

Not only that, but I have a continuity reading between the yellow stator wire to the brown wire headlight connection.

I am assuming this is not correct???

mousewheels · Post by **mousewheels** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:50 pm

If I pull the regulator completely, I still have power to the lights.

Not only that, but I have a continuity reading between the yellow stator wire to the brown wire headlight connection.

Both observations are normal. Here's why:

The Stator provides AC for headlight and instrument lights power. This is a design feature - your headlight comes on automatically when the engine is running, and it can never be left on when you stop. See schematic below for the current path. It's highlighted in magenta.

Your taillight would light by battery power. This is not interrupted by removal of the regulator.

Loaded test:
With the regulator out, if you put 6 ohms or so on the White wire to ground and either a working headlight or another 6 ohms to ground on the Yellow wire, you could then measure the AC voltage on each. The Yellow should be something you'd expect for the Headlamp (under 14vAC) and the White is probably over that.

Samargh · Post by **Samargh** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:05 am

Thanks for that Mouse... only problem is, that diagram currently bears no resemblance to my scoot.

The external switch for the headlights look identical to the manual, however inside the switch I have 4 wires:-

green (earth)
Pink (leads to what Kenny termed the bleed resistor, 6.7ohm 20W job at the back; funnily, I can't find a pink wire or that resistor anywhere on the wiring diagrams).
Brown (goes to High beam terminal on headlamp)
Yellow (goes to stator)

they are positioned

Green Brown

Pink Yellow

the off position links green-pink

the middle position links all four

The full position links brown-yellow.

I just don't understand it... the wiring and switch internals look legit, but off and mid will always short straight to ground, while high just feeds the stator output straight through the light.

it "feels" as if I'm missing part of the circuit... the part where it bleeds the excess current and voltage out through the pink wire to ground, thus preserving the lamp...

Samargh · Post by **Samargh** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:02 am

PROFANITY! Shows you what a few hours distraction and some vodka and cokes will do for the thought process...

I can disconnect the yellow from the stator feed and run a wire from the yellow going to the headlight up to the positive terminal on the battery...

regulated 12v approx to the headlight. I will only have full beam, but thats all I've ever had.

and of course I'd have to remember to turn the lights of when I park, but thats no biggie beacause unlike the standard US model (or a car) I'm not reliant on an electronic start...

will that work????

mousewheels · Post by **mousewheels** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:49 pm

Moving the headlight to the battery side should pretty much be as you say.
I don't think it would hurt anything.

Sorry about the schematic - I didn't know how much US vs out of US models electrics vary. Guess you get more choices - off/dim/high vs our Low/High beam.

I tried to create a schematic from your wiring description, to see how it might be wired up. In the 'off' position, the slider would move right, connecting only the resistor to ground. At the 'Hi' position, the slider would move left, and only connect the stator to the lamp. At the dislayed 'lo' position, the resistor in in parallel to the bulb, putting extra load on the stator to dimming the bulb.

Does this look like what you have? One way to have the 'off' and 'low' position short to gnd the stator coil is if the yellow wire is connected to the pink. I guess shorted resistor would do it too, but you checked that already.

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Spree 86 blowing lights

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