Honda Spree and Elite 50 Forums

i assume you have clean gas?

I just went bad and read the original post and the

"It blows lots of (very blue) smoke."

could very well mean the the oil pump seals are gone hence pumping extra oil into the crankcase and causing his problems.

Black smoke = to rich

Blue smoke = to much oil

3000gt wrote:i assume you have clean gas?

Hi.
Yup, Drained then Cleaned out tank, removed and cleaned strainer.
Fitted an in-line fuel filter!!!
Cheerz

Bear45-70 wrote:I just went bad and read the original post and the

"It blows lots of (very blue) smoke."

could very well mean the the oil pump seals are gone hence pumping extra oil into the crankcase and causing his problems.

Black smoke = to rich

Blue smoke = to much oil

Hi, Thanx.
Will check that - tho' I think the cause is petrol related rather than oil mix.
Fast running out of options..... eh?
But............................ how's this?
If i turn petrol tap (NZ manual version only) off - motor brightens up and runs quite well for 20-30 secs before leaning-off and dying. Turn tap on, start up again and same poor running after 10 seconds. Tap off again and it gets better again....Repeat....
I actually rode it for 5-10 mins turning tap off and on as I went, just to prove my suspicions. Must be the cut-off valve needle not seating correctly and overfilling carb?? I HAVE POLISHED THE SEAT WITH COTTON BUD AND TOOTHPASTE.
Trouble is needles are $35 NZ to buy and floats are unobtainable new. Second hand would likely inherit someone elses problems, I fear!
Cheerz.

Comments??

GRAHAME

ghpiaggio wrote:

Bear45-70 wrote:I just went bad and read the original post and the

"It blows lots of (very blue) smoke."

could very well mean the the oil pump seals are gone hence pumping extra oil into the crankcase and causing his problems.

Black smoke = to rich

Blue smoke = to much oil

Hi, Thanx.
Will check that - tho' I think the cause is petrol related rather than oil mix.
Fast running out of options..... eh?
But............................ how's this?
If i turn petrol tap (NZ manual version only) off - motor brightens up and runs quite well for 20-30 secs before leaning-off and dying. Turn tap on, start up again and same poor running after 10 seconds. Tap off again and it gets better again....Repeat....
I actually rode it for 5-10 mins turning tap off and on as I went, just to prove my suspicions. Must be the cut-off valve needle not seating correctly and overfilling carb?? I HAVE POLISHED THE SEAT WITH COTTON BUD AND TOOTHPASTE.
Trouble is needles are $35 NZ to buy and floats are unobtainable new. Second hand would likely inherit someone elses problems, I fear!
Cheerz.

Comments??

GRAHAME

I agree, it is a needle and set and/or float issue.

Hmmmmm....... seems likely.
I did check fuel level using clear tube. Seemed OK and mysterious gas smell disapppeared after the 3rd clean and a thin paper gasket being added.

Might just get a used carb and totally re-con it and "triple" bench-check" .


T.B.A.

Hopeful still of a result
GRAHAME

Greetings:

Grahame posted:

Petrol level is just below the join of the carb halves.

Petrol?! These dang ol' thangs need wholesome gas.

While I was there, I added a paper gasket to the carb body as the 'O' ring was a little compressed and allowed a small mist of gas to exude. Perhaps that was the gas smell I had before??

Based on the clarity of your posts and ideas, I trust your skills, but that's a pretty tough thing to achieve. No chance you could score a proper rebuild kit from eBay or Honda? It would remove a variable, perhaps a significant one.

Might just get a used carb and totally re-con it and "triple" bench-check

Probably your best option if you can find one.

Want you to try something, remove the (in-line) fuel filter you put on the bike. I bought a cheap in line filter from autozone because my bikes gas tank had a little bit of rust in it. what happened was my bike would run great for about 15-20 seconds then die. What i finally figured out after several hundred kick starts, was the d*** ethanol in the fuel creates some kind of gel in the filter and stops it up.

3000gt wrote:Want you to try something, remove the (in-line) fuel filter you put on the bike. I bought a cheap in line filter from autozone because my bikes gas tank had a little bit of rust in it. what happened was my bike would run great for about 15-20 seconds then die. What i finally figured out after several hundred kick starts, was the d*** ethanol in the fuel creates some kind of gel in the filter and stops it up.

Almost all fuel filters sold at auto parts stores are meant to be used with a fuel "pump". A gravity feed system, like used on most scooters needs a freer flowing style of filter. Like you find on most lawn mowers (mine is one of the exceptions, as the 34 CID, 20hp V-twin had a fuel pump). So either specify a lawn mower filter at the auto parts store, they will most likely have to look it up, or go to the lawn mower or small engine shop and get the right type of filter.

I'd be surprized if you can't get your hands on a Chinese knockoff PA carb. If nothing else as a source of parts. Used Japanese is of course better most of the time.

Running up to 20 MPH smoothly, but bogging, is a really odd operating condition for a rich engine, but from all the other things you're saying, it does sound like a over-rich engine.

Since we've exhausted the normal solutions:

Any chance someone ran a numbered drill bit, or chunk of wire, through the idle jet? They behave like this if they've had this done (running rich all the time). A #80 bit (smallest commercially available to my knowledge, .0135") or the thinnest guitar E string (smallest I have is .009") will *not* fit through the idle jet; if you have either on hand you could check this way. If they pass through the carb's hosed; the damage is not repairable, and you're back to running down a used one.

Hello again.
Thanx for the follow ups.
I've got a used carb, float and new needle coming.
I took out the fuel filter - SAME running! I'm also using non ethanol mix brand of 91 octane regular. Only 2 brands in NZ add it to our fuels.
I tried a top E string from my acoustic guitar (Yamaha as it happens!) - and NO it doesn't fit down the idle jet (thats the hole next to main jet, yes?). So it ain't that either.........
When I posted that scoota gets to 20 mph - it takes a good 20-30 secs to get to it, and it runs rough! Belches loads of blue smoke. Turning off fuel tap(manual version here) and then back on again, then repeating every 10 secs, gets reasonably smooth running up to and holds approx. 30mph....

Here's hoping the new (some used) parts will cure it. I'll try the float and needle first - may not need to play with the next (old) carbie, at all.
Thanx again....

GRAHAME

OK, that "running rough" is called 4-stroking. That's indicative of running rich.

Did you check the float to see if it floats? Shake it, see if there's gas inside, and see if it will float on top of the gasoline? Not a typical issue on these, but something to check.

ghpiaggio wrote:Thanks guys.
Compression is 90 Psi, so not too bad? Probably indicates the reeds are doing their job??
The float - floats and has no holes. The stop needle seats properly, but I haven't measured the cut-off point height - may be too low.
Just one other symptom.
The idle screw is only 1/8 turn from all the way in when engine is warm. Must be a carburretor issue - surely?

Will check the flywheel alignment and prescence of the shaft 'key' after having another go at the carb.
Thanx heaps...

Any more ideas?

Thanx again, but BEEN THERE, DONE THAT with the float!
Still waiting for new needle & float to arrive
GRAHAME

When you remove all of the jets, particularly the low speed circuit, you should visually be able to inspect the jet in particular the jet orifice, the hole should be perfectly round. You were not clear whether you actually stuck the guitar wire through the jet orifice.
Noiseguy pointed out that you may be fourstroking. It is a very rhythmical beat with a lot of fumes going out the pipe.

It is quite possible that the previous owner already drilled out the jets? but a sunk float can make your bike fourstroke.

noiseguy wrote:OK, that "running rough" is called 4-stroking. That's indicative of running rich.

You gotta explain that term for an ole coot who's spent most of his life working on 4 strokers, from lawnmowers to big rigs.