Honda Spree and Elite 50 Forums

OK, yes the switches are all in the right positions.

TTT
Still looking for ideas.....

Yup, me too, I have an extra starter bendix/pinion.
Have you checked yours for wear and prpoer operation?

roadcapDen wrote:Yup, me too, I have an extra starter bendix/pinion.
Have you checked yours for wear and prpoer operation?

how do you check these parts?
take the starter off?

Yes, Took out the starter and checked 'er, and the bendix/pinion also.

pirlgirl wrote:TTT
Still looking for ideas.....

I'd go back to some basics here.

Pull out the spark plug, attach it back to the cable and let the tip rest against a metal part of the frame. In the dark, kick over the scoot and carefully observe the color and intensity of spark. Now do the same thing trying to start with a known good 12V car battery. How do the sparks compare?

When you turn over the starter with the battery, with your finger over the spark plug hole do you feel the pulsating pressure from the cylinder? If you do, that will at least exclude the possibility of of a starter engagement issue.

Clive.

Clivester wrote:

pirlgirl wrote:TTT
Still looking for ideas.....

I'd go back to some basics here.

Pull out the spark plug, attach it back to the cable and let the tip rest against a metal part of the frame. In the dark, kick over the scoot and carefully observe the color and intensity of spark. Now do the same thing trying to start with a known good 12V car battery. How do the sparks compare?

When you turn over the starter with the battery, with your finger over the spark plug hole do you feel the pulsating pressure from the cylinder? If you do, that will at least exclude the possibility of of a starter engagement issue.

Clive.

On a spree the battery has NOTHING to do with ignition.

Greetings:

Kenny's absolutely right. He told me and I tried it myself. The battery was in the dumpster at the time. Big blue spark!

A CDI ignition is basically an electronic magneto and it needs no outside power source to operate, just turn the motor over and you should have spark if the switches are in the go position. They also tend to have just as hot a spark at cranking speeds as at WOT.

Kenny_McCormic wrote:On a spree the battery has NOTHING to do with ignition.

I think you guys missed the point. I said lets get back to basics. Not knowing how experienced pirgirl is with motors its just to establish that the starter is actually turning over the engine and maybe get an impression of whether its turning over quickly enough to allow the engine to start.

Observing a spark is a lot more definitive than "it sounds like......."

Yes I know the scoot doesn't REQUIRE a battery to start but the symptom here is NO starting WITH the battery.

Clive.

Bear45-70 wrote:A CDI ignition is basically an electronic magneto and it needs no outside power source to operate, just turn the motor over and you should have spark if the switches are in the go position. They also tend to have just as hot a spark at cranking speeds as at WOT.

Here's how a battery can impact on the ignition. You are correct about spark strength. That's because the CDI provides a signal to release charge from a capacitor, so it will generally be consistent throughout the range of speed. However, the signal is generated from a pick-up coil and trigger coil in the stator, and the strength of signal depends on rpms of the magneto. If the magneto turns too slowly the signal could drop below the threshold for the CDI circuit, resulting in no discharge and hence no spark. Kick starting is providing sufficient rpms but maybe the battery/starter is not.

Clive.

Clivester wrote:

Bear45-70 wrote:A CDI ignition is basically an electronic magneto and it needs no outside power source to operate, just turn the motor over and you should have spark if the switches are in the go position. They also tend to have just as hot a spark at cranking speeds as at WOT.

Here's how a battery can impact on the ignition. You are correct about spark strength. That's because the CDI provides a signal to release charge from a capacitor, so it will generally be consistent throughout the range of speed. However, the signal is generated from a pick-up coil and trigger coil in the stator, and the strength of signal depends on rpms of the magneto. If the magneto turns too slowly the signal could drop below the threshold for the CDI circuit, resulting in no discharge and hence no spark. Kick starting is providing sufficient rpms but maybe the battery/starter is not.

Clive.

Well you are partly right. The improvement over a magneto is that even at cranking speeds you still get full voltage from the charge coils and full spark from the coil. You can turn it over by had and get full spark too. As the voltage from the charge coils increases with rpm, the extra voltage is bled off in the CDI so as not to over drive the coil. I've been to school at least a dozen times on CDI systems plus worked on them for 35 years and magnetos before that and the CDI is a major improvement over the magneto. That's why they developed it to solve the problems with magnetos.