discussion

[Bear45-70]

Since when?

Most engine built in this world have cast iron blocks and even 2 strokes except for air cooled ones also do not have removable jugs. The removable jug thing is an air cooled engine feature you find in airplaine engines and some smaller 1 and 2 cylinder air cooled engine. Try taking a Chevy V-8 and increase the deck height, can't be done. You can shorten it by milling the block but you sure as * can increase it. As to raising the deck height with gaskets with a 2 stroke........whoops there goes the port timing! Won't work properly either.

The VW air cooled boxer engines have removable jugs, the polaris water cooled 650 triple motors have removable jugs.

There are a always exceptions but they are only exceptions and not the norm. Oh and all of the Doctors flat 4 air cooled engines had removeable jugs, but being 4 stroke didn't have port to deal with. The Hansa Goliath from the early 60s had a VW style flat 4 engine with air cooled removable jugs and water cooled heads. But they are just exceptions and they do not represent 2 stroke jugs with port that get their timing changed when you raise the deck height with gaskets. Besides that, you don't change deck height to correct for increased stroke. You use shorter rods or raise the wrist pin in the piston.

[ALOW1]

Last I checked we were on a scooter forum. I guess I should of made myself more clear but being it was a scooter forum I guess I just assumed we would be discussing scooters.

With that being said, most engines do have removable jug's.

[ALOW1]

But they are just exceptions and they do not represent 2 stroke jugs with port that get their timing changed when you raise the deck height with gaskets. Besides that, you don't change deck height to correct for increased stroke. You use shorter rods or raise the wrist pin in the piston.

As for the gasket thing that Burnt did....

Not everyone has access to a lathe and even if we all did how many people here would know how to use it?

He used what was available to him. He did the same thing that countless others have done to keep the piston from hitting the head. I know its hard to imagine but several hundreds of people have done this before already.

Does it work? Yes it works otherwise people wouldn't do it.

Bear you really like to go on and on about what is right and what is wrong in building these engines. I understand you know what your talking about but your not helping anybody out here.

If the piston is available to fix the problem then tell us which one we need to use. If its not available then maybe you should help us out by turning some out for us.

I know you have built some killer boat motors and whatever over the years as we have all heard about it. But nobody here cares about it, its not a boat forum. Its a scooter forum and we are here to discuss scooters. Every time we get into a discussion about something you start bringing up things about other motors, great but it doesn't pertain to scooters.

Even in this thread you said most engines don't have removable jug's so i asked since when, and you start talking about small block Chevys. Thanks for enlightening all of us about that, because that's going to help us how?

As far as Burnt is concerned, I will give him a lot more credit than you with helping people out around here.

Burnt built an Elite, he put up a pretty good thread about his build process for all of us. He put down his thoughts and even has talked about his errors.

What have you done? Not much. You don't even own an Elite, you will probably never own one much less own one and then mod it out. Instead of building one and showing everybody here how to fix the problem that Burnt had the proper way you will just sit back and tell us all how he is wrong in the way he built his.

[Bear45-70]

But they are just exceptions and they do not represent 2 stroke jugs with port that get their timing changed when you raise the deck height with gaskets. Besides that, you don't change deck height to correct for increased stroke. You use shorter rods or raise the wrist pin in the piston.

As for the gasket thing that Burnt did....

Not everyone has access to a lathe and even if we all did how many people here would know how to use it?

He used what was available to him. He did the same thing that countless others have done to keep the piston from hitting the head. I know its hard to imagine but several hundreds of people have done this before already.

Does it work? Yes it works otherwise people wouldn't do it.

Bear you really like to go on and on about what is right and what is wrong in building these engines. I understand you know what your talking about but your not helping anybody out here.

If the piston is available to fix the problem then tell us which one we need to use. If its not available then maybe you should help us out by turning some out for us.

I know you have built some killer boat motors and whatever over the years as we have all heard about it. But nobody here cares about it, its not a boat forum. Its a scooter forum and we are here to discuss scooters. Every time we get into a discussion about something you start bringing up things about other motors, great but it doesn't pertain to scooters.

Even in this thread you said most engines don't have removable jug's so i asked since when, and you start talking about small block Chevys. Thanks for enlightening all of us about that, because that's going to help us how?

As far as Burnt is concerned, I will give him a lot more credit than you with helping people out around here.

Burnt built an Elite, he put up a pretty good thread about his build process for all of us. He put down his thoughts and even has talked about his errors.

What have you done? Not much. You don't even own an Elite, you will probably never own one much less own one and then mod it out. Instead of building one and showing everybody here how to fix the problem that Burnt had the proper way you will just sit back and tell us all how he is wrong in the way he built his.

Yes, it will work, is it the right way to do it, NO! Just because others have done it wrong does not now mean that is the right way to do engine mods. There is not much point in spending money and hours of work to improve the performance of your engine and then do something than takes half or more of that performance increase away.

As to what I have done, not have much with my scooter as I have other priorities in my life that make the scooter take second seat, but I have been a National High point champion, twice, set several speed records with 2 strokes, doing all my own wrenching with a very non-stock motor. With 4 stroke motors, again being my own wrench, I won several local championships, plus had numerous hot rods I built over the years. But then I was also a factory certified 2 stroke mechanic for years plus was a crew chief for an offshore power boat. Then again I have more hours a of 2 stroke experience than almost anyone here, both stock and racing motors. So I know what's right and wrong and if what you want for this forum is for people to be told the wrong way to do thing, then fine.

[ALOW1]

But they are just exceptions and they do not represent 2 stroke jugs with port that get their timing changed when you raise the deck height with gaskets. Besides that, you don't change deck height to correct for increased stroke. You use shorter rods or raise the wrist pin in the piston.

As for the gasket thing that Burnt did....

Not everyone has access to a lathe and even if we all did how many people here would know how to use it?

He used what was available to him. He did the same thing that countless others have done to keep the piston from hitting the head. I know its hard to imagine but several hundreds of people have done this before already.

Does it work? Yes it works otherwise people wouldn't do it.

Bear you really like to go on and on about what is right and what is wrong in building these engines. I understand you know what your talking about but your not helping anybody out here.

If the piston is available to fix the problem then tell us which one we need to use. If its not available then maybe you should help us out by turning some out for us.

I know you have built some killer boat motors and whatever over the years as we have all heard about it. But nobody here cares about it, its not a boat forum. Its a scooter forum and we are here to discuss scooters. Every time we get into a discussion about something you start bringing up things about other motors, great but it doesn't pertain to scooters.

Even in this thread you said most engines don't have removable jug's so i asked since when, and you start talking about small block Chevys. Thanks for enlightening all of us about that, because that's going to help us how?

As far as Burnt is concerned, I will give him a lot more credit than you with helping people out around here.

Burnt built an Elite, he put up a pretty good thread about his build process for all of us. He put down his thoughts and even has talked about his errors.

What have you done? Not much. You don't even own an Elite, you will probably never own one much less own one and then mod it out. Instead of building one and showing everybody here how to fix the problem that Burnt had the proper way you will just sit back and tell us all how he is wrong in the way he built his.

Yes, it will work, is it the right way to do it, NO! Just because others have done it wrong does not now mean that is the right way to do engine mods. There is not much point in spending money and hours of work to improve the performance of your engine and then do something than takes half or more of that performance increase away.

As to what I have done, not have much with my scooter as I have other priorities in my life that make the scooter take second seat, but I have been a National High point champion, twice, set several speed records with 2 strokes, doing all my own wrenching with a very non-stock motor. With 4 stroke motors, again being my own wrench, I won several local championships, plus had numerous hot rods I built over the years. But then I was also a factory certified 2 stroke mechanic for years plus was a crew chief for an offshore power boat. Then again I have more hours a of 2 stroke experience than almost anyone here, both stock and racing motors. So I know what's right and wrong and if what you want for this forum is for people to be told the wrong way to do thing, then fine.

Thanks for coming back at me with a non negative attitude. I was trying to write it and not sound like an * but sometimes its hard to do on a forum.

I know you have a lot of experience with motors and I am sure your career has went well for you. I didn't want you to take it the wrong way.

I understand that its not the right way to do it, but Burnt was not able to build it the right way as the parts to do it that was are not available. I do not want anybody to think I am trying to take sides with Burnt either, I do not know the guy, I have never met him nor talked to him. I just know him from reading his post's on here.

I have talked with you bear more on here than I have with Burnt. I just don't want to sound like I am trying to defend a friend is all.

But the parts to do it the right way are not available and that's the reason he did it that way. The guys on the Hawaii forums do it the same way because they have the same problem.

It would be nice though if Polini made pistons to work with different strokes. I know you said it before about contacting them. Maybe thats what people need to do, start sending e-mails to a piston company to see if they can be persuaded to make different pistons for different strokes.

You would know better than any of us, are there company's out there that will cast pistons for us? I mean not like one offs but like do a predetermined amount of them, then a group buy could maybe help lower the cost's.

I don't know its just a thought. I wonder if the demand would be high enough?



On another note, you said you built some hot rods. I hope you built some flathead powered ones back in the day. I got a 38 Ford in the garage and those flattys make me happy in my pants

[burnt_toast]

But they are just exceptions and they do not represent 2 stroke jugs with port that get their timing changed when you raise the deck height with gaskets. Besides that, you don't change deck height to correct for increased stroke. You use shorter rods or raise the wrist pin in the piston.

As for the gasket thing that Burnt did....

Not everyone has access to a lathe and even if we all did how many people here would know how to use it?

He used what was available to him. He did the same thing that countless others have done to keep the piston from hitting the head. I know its hard to imagine but several hundreds of people have done this before already.

Does it work? Yes it works otherwise people wouldn't do it.

Bear you really like to go on and on about what is right and what is wrong in building these engines. I understand you know what your talking about but your not helping anybody out here.

If the piston is available to fix the problem then tell us which one we need to use. If its not available then maybe you should help us out by turning some out for us.

I know you have built some killer boat motors and whatever over the years as we have all heard about it. But nobody here cares about it, its not a boat forum. Its a scooter forum and we are here to discuss scooters. Every time we get into a discussion about something you start bringing up things about other motors, great but it doesn't pertain to scooters.

Even in this thread you said most engines don't have removable jug's so i asked since when, and you start talking about small block Chevys. Thanks for enlightening all of us about that, because that's going to help us how?

As far as Burnt is concerned, I will give him a lot more credit than you with helping people out around here.

Burnt built an Elite, he put up a pretty good thread about his build process for all of us. He put down his thoughts and even has talked about his errors.

What have you done? Not much. You don't even own an Elite, you will probably never own one much less own one and then mod it out. Instead of building one and showing everybody here how to fix the problem that Burnt had the proper way you will just sit back and tell us all how he is wrong in the way he built his.

Thank ya very much sir, I was going to reply and you literally took the words out of my mouth with this post.

And for the record, with everything that I've "done wrong", my Elite hauls * and runs like a champ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ab-mq6t9sp8

I'm glad you have lots of knowledge under you belt bear, I do not doubt that. As Alow stated I was clearly forced to work with what I had, and again this was mentioned in my main post. Some shops actually do carve out the head to clear the piston and results in the full 77cc possible with these same parts (47mm bore 44.4mm crank). I don't have enough know-how on this, nor the capability. If you figure the way I did things is wrong, well then hey that's how you feel and there's not much more for me to say.

[burnt_toast]

Also for what it's worth:

My scooters are my toys. I have fun building them and don't try to get overly technical about them. They make me no money, no friends (relatively at least, very few tuners locally), and can be considered a general waste of time. But I enjoy wrenching on them and learning mostly by trial and error. In the end with frustration here and there, I end up with something that puts a smile on my face and gives me some personal satisfaction.

That is generally all I get, and I try to share my results with folks that may find it interesting and useful and learn from my mistakes, maybe get better ideas on specifics. Hawaii folks don't really do the same, just post their finished pics and mods, but I feel sharing the details on the process getting there, can help others more.

I am petitioning for a tech elective in Internal Combustion Engines next semester and if that goes through I hope to learn a lot more.

[Kenny_McCormic]

I think the real question here is

1. Does it work? YES
2. Is Burnt happy with it(even though it was done in a unusual way)? YES

Who gives a s*** if he didnt build it the right way, * up port timing, whatever. He's happy with how it runs and thats all that really matters.

[Bear45-70]

I can't help it if you have low standards.

[burnt_toast]

I can't help it if you have low standards.

After everything that's been said, that's your reply?? You clearly haven't gotten the point.

You're a joke.

[Bear45-70]

I think the real question here is

1. Does it work? YES
2. Is Burnt happy with it(even though it was done in a unusual way)? YES

Who gives a s*** if he didnt build it the right way, * up port timing, whatever. He's happy with how it runs and thats all that really matters.

No, the issue is Burnt posting not only incorrect info but saying the wrong way is the way to do it because he made it work to his low level of satisfaction. His happiness is of no concern to anyone but him. His infomation will make others think that his way is the correct way to do this type of mod. Since it is not the proper way to do this work, why are you supportting his position on this?

[ALOW1]

I think the real question here is

1. Does it work? YES
2. Is Burnt happy with it(even though it was done in a unusual way)? YES

Who gives a s*** if he didnt build it the right way, * up port timing, whatever. He's happy with how it runs and thats all that really matters.

No, the issue is Burnt posting not only incorrect info but saying the wrong way is the way to do it because he made it work to his low level of satisfaction. His happiness is of no concern to anyone but him. His infomation will make others think that his way is the correct way to do this type of mod. Since it is not the proper way to do this work, why are you supportting his position on this?

Here we go again......

Bear what is the proper way of doing it?

[Dac]

Here we go again......

Bear what is the proper way of doing it?

The proper way of doing this on an elite.

[Kenny_McCormic]

Proper way involves $10,000 in tools.

[Bear45-70]

The proper way is to either buy a stroker kit with all the right parts so that the port timing is where it needs to be with the new stroke. This will usually include a new piston and/or rod, a jug along with the stroker crank. This kind of thing takes more than just installing a stroker crank and stacking gaskets to keep the piston from hitting the head. Too many on here think that horse power should be cheap because it's a scooter. It doesn't work that way. A two stroke's port timing is the same as a camshaft in a 4 stroke engine. The wrong cam and your engine is not gonna take advantage of the full potential of the mods you have done to your engine. Leave the stock cam in you 4 stroke engine and all the mods in the world will be wasted. Leave the stock jug on your modded 2 stroke and you might as well skip the mods all together. The best you will see are slight improvements.