Page 16 of 25

Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 4:18 pm
by eclark5483
Waiting on 1man8scoots to send me the ported SB50 intake and reed cage. Gonna double check and make sure I have gaskets, spacers, whatever. Also decided to use the replacement BBK Taz sent. In the first set of runs, the engine did a soft seize possibly something even close to a hard seize and back tire locked up briefly. A probe with the endoscope didn't find any issues with the wall, but I'm paranoid about the rings and the horsepower drop after run 2. Wanna make sure the next run has a better and sturdy setup.

Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 4:27 pm
by eclark5483
As a side note and off topic a bit, here is the new TaoTao I just had wrapped up that SS C&C did work on. Runs like a champion, gonna change out sliders after break in and see if I can squeeze a bit more out of it. https://youtu.be/UxZoT5GKi1A

Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:36 pm
by PolishMoFo
I was wondering if the polini kit was helpful? I have the big bore kit but have not installed it yet

Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:56 pm
by eclark5483
The Spree with a BBK wants to breathe. The better you can do for it, the better off you will be. You don't have to use a Polini, but it sure helps.

Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:57 pm
by PolishMoFo
Sorry didn't see the previous posts

Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:48 pm
by MrJumps
tazland001 wrote:I just wanted to touch base on the pilot jet. The pilot jet only controls the 1/4 throttle. It was not suppose to be a magic bullet. The theory is if the pilot is to lean on the 1/4 throttle it could cause heat spikes during de-acceleration when you let off the throttle or slow down into the 1/4 throttle range. I was hoping you would test this theory on the spree carb.

taz

He is gonna send the carb too me, I am also gonna get the bbk from him too. if that is so I will need new rings and circlips. Anyway I will run all kinds of test on the bike, I will be getting a cht and a pollini pipe for the bike too. should be a killer spree. I may later on get the final gear set. anyway cheers! - Jumps

Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 1:05 am
by eclark5483
At work ATM, I'll post an image when I get home next to my spare Spree intake of what I have now. If I'm guessing correctly, the wrong one you sent is actually the right one that I'll need when the SB intake gets here. Either way, we'll get it figured out. The Spree's asthma troubles will be no more with a nice ported SB50 intake/reeds paired with a Polini... Can't wait to see how the next run goes!!

Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 4:30 am
by eclark5483
OK. The adapter you sent me is on the left, Spare Spree intake is on the right. Is this the Elite or Aero? Or are Elite/Aero same thing? I'm not familiar with those intakes.

Image

Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 5:46 am
by eclark5483
PolishMoFo wrote:I was wondering if the polini kit was helpful? I have the big bore kit but have not installed it yet
Since your new, I'll do ya a little courtesy and offer my own take on it. Others will probably have a differing opinion.

So first of all, the BBK is one awesome awesome upgrade, you are gonna LOVE IT!! There are some things though that you should realize and keep in mind though if you want it to run good and run for a long time.

Like I said before, when it comes to the BBK in a Spree, it wants to and it needs to breathe. There is a bit of issue with that though that you will need to contend with.. how much air/fuel to give it and how much you can throw at it.

Now, a couple of the guys here had problems with overheating. They tried doing things like throwing more fuel at it on the main jet with very little success. The problem they were more then likely seeing, is a problem that plagues many people who run it with a pod filter over an air box. Yes you CAN use a pod filter if you choose to do so, keep in mind a free air pod filter will require a jet upgrade a little bigger then what you need with the air box. This goes for about any given motorcycle when people switch to a pod filter. A pod filter, will give you more power, faster revs, more oomph. But it comes with a price. When you don't have that airbox anymore, you eliminate alot of back pressure. What this back pressure does, is help lower your stoich air/fuel ratio. If you can get your stoich down into the 12.0-12.9 range, your engine will be burning the fuel more efficiently and will have fuel to spare to cool the engine. On an air cooled 2 stroke engine, the oil only lubricates, it is your fuel that has the cooling properties. This is important to remember during break in because you don't at this point, want heat to expand your cylinder and what have you too much while the rings are breaking in. The cooler you can keep the engine while the rings and wall of the cylinder find their harmony, the more life and better performance you will get out of your engine in the long run.

So while, yes there are all kinds of ways to go to improve on the performance you get out of the BBK, like doing a better carb, porting the intake, better muffler. Don't worry about that stuff at this point. There are TONS of articles, wiki pages, and very helpful members here that can help you sort that out. I've been going at mine going on over 6 months now.. LOTS of research, and, as you can tell by this thread, LOTS of testing. Keep in mind I spent a ridiculous amount of money. Basically, almost half of last years profit sharing check! That's not the kind of investment I would advise anybody to make unless you are doing a restore project like I am, for the reasons I am. A frugal person can get decent performance out of the BBK and not break the bank, and it starts with breaking it in right.

So with that being said, my advice is use your stock airbox just for now. Don't worry about all these extra goodies you can slap on and try. Drill 6-3/8th inch holes just past the inlet on the air box lid. I don't have a video to show you because I never recorded it because it was not a dyno run, it was an air fuel stoich test. But anyway, the 6 holes turned out to be the very best at letting in air while still maintaining sufficient back pressure. This kept stoich in the mid to upper 12's. Of course, you will not be running the BBK at full horsepower potential like that, but you will not be plagued with heat spikes when you let off the throttle.

A GREAT example of someone whos BBK runs well, is Ultraliner. He uses an airbox with 2-20mm holes drilled in it. I think he said a #90 main jet, and not much else. By volume, his 2-20mm holes are about the same as the 6-3/8ths holes I talked about. The 6 holes are just a tad more volume then what he uses, so somewhere in that range will be perfect for you.

Put a couple hundred miles or so on the BBK with that type of setup, THEN decide if you want to go with a pod filter, or porting or even the Polini. You might be pretty happy with what you have and will want to just keep it as is.

Also, don't let the Dyno run videos I post fool you on the kind of pickup the BBK has. Keep in mind on a Dyno, the Spree has to try pulling a 1,000lb drum off the start just to get up to about 15mph so we can take a reading. Plus I am using higher gears. The dyno starts are NOT representative of how it will accelerate off the start. In the real world, it is much much faster. Especially if you DON'T use higher gears. With just stock gears and a stock carb with a typical #90 jet, the Spree will rocket you up to 35 with a big smile on your face.

And another thing to mention, is DO NOT forget to take an exacto knife or something and trim the boost port on the gasket that comes with the kit. You can find info on this here for reference with an image: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=33328&p=289752

And last, whatever you do, do NOT beat the heII out of the BBK like I have been doing while it is breaking in. You can get on it a bit, sure, no biggy, who doesn't wanna try out their new BBK and see what that puppy can do? But try not to do it too much. Even with the added stoich boost from the airbox helping keep it cool, a nice steady break in will give you longer life. The BBK is strong and can take alot. Yes, I am changing out mine, but this is only as a precautionary measure and because I am paranoid and partly OCD. I'll leave it to Mr. Jumps to determine if the paranoia was warranted when I pass it off to him to play with. As of today, it starts right up, seems to run great... aside from the experimental pilot issue which doesn't count. A good re-hone and a change of rings, the BBK should be ready for action. And if he figures out where we went wrong on the carb with the pilot swap, this could be a potential savings over buying that Polini. The main thing that made me lean to buying the Polini, is I was getting tired of playing around with the stock carb. I get charged $60 an hour on labor, I work 2 jobs and don't have time to do many things myself, so trying swap after swap on experimental parts just simply isn't in my budget. The advantage of the Polini is I can swap out main and pilot jets by simply buying a multi jet kit.

The issue with the stock carb, is mainly with the pilot jet, as Taz mentioned above, the theory is that too small a pilot causes heat spikes. This problem affects mainly BBK's with pod filter and a bit with ones using an airbox but not as bad. Changing that, is NOT an easy task, Reference this wiki: http://hondaspree.net/wiki/index.php5?t ... ix_at_idle

On my bike, we attempted the swap to try and address the issue. This was done because we are shooting for that magic 12 stoich number. This swap DOES NOT need to be done to run the BBK well on your own bike. Keep in mind, I'm doing alot of this junk in the name of science... That, and it's fun for both me and the guys at SS Collision & Cycleworks to see how much we can squeeze out of a stock Spree engine. It's something different then the usual motorcycles we each deal with day to day, and it's gonna rock when we finish. :2thumbs:

Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:39 am
by Meatball
Well written Eclark. You have definitely cleared up an otherwise murky topic. I check your thread all the time for updates and test results. I still think you should start a Go-Fund me page... :wink:

I wonder if other motor/BBK combos have the same issues with tuning? Malossi, Polini, etc...maybe those are more plug n play?

Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 3:03 pm
by eclark5483
Oh probably, but not quite as bad. My new TaoTao for instance, still needs some tweaking on the pilot.It's running too rich. Need to tear off plastics if Polaris ever gives me a day off, and adjust the idle air fuel mix. Other then that, it runs great.

But anyway, just put an order in on honda.mymcparts.com for the following (1988) SB50 parts:

X2 GASKET, IN PIPE 17111-GN2-010
INSULATOR, CARBURETOR 17121-GY1-860
O-RING (20.6X1.9) 91304-GB0-910
BOLT, FLANGE (6X40) 96001-06040-00

$10 for parts, like $15 for shipping...sheesh!!

I'm thinking I have the gaskets for it from the NQ50 gasket set, but just to play it safe and save me a trip up to the shop to confirm, I just went ahead and tossed a couple in my cart. Same thing with the bolts. Just gotta wait for all that to arrive, plus 1man8scoots stuff, and we'll be ready to rock out on the dyno for what should be the very last time and with the very best horsepower/torque run yet. So I wanna say give it another week or so and I'll post that.

Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 4:51 pm
by Meatball
If theres ever parts you can order directly from a Honda dealer you can just go through your local Honda shop. They order it for you and you can pick it up from there free of shipping charges when it shows up. I did that with a few things like carb bowl gasket, bearings, etc. It helps if you have part numbers when ordering since 99% of those guys are clueless about our scoots.

Also, some items that show as "obsolete" on sites like partzilla are actually still available under a different part number. I was looking for a Spree bearing that had part# X and that number changed in 1988 to part# Z...then it changed again in 2001 to part # Y.....same bearing but it changed part numbers numerous times over the years to be used in bikes of newer years. The guy at my local Honda shop was savvy enough to trace it all the way back and sell me the correct bearing even though it had been "obsolete" for 25yrs.

Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:07 pm
by MrJumps
Buying your own gasket materials and a exacto knife is so much cheaper. My 15 dollar roll is large enough to make at least 6 good side kicker panal gaskets with and inside those gaskets and around them if your good with reseving material you coild make so many base and carb mani adapter etc gaskets.

Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 2:52 am
by Ultraliner
eclark5483 wrote:
But anyway, just put an order in on honda.mymcparts.com for the following (1988) SB50 parts:

X2 GASKET, IN PIPE 17111-GN2-010
INSULATOR, CARBURETOR 17121-GY1-860
O-RING (20.6X1.9) 91304-GB0-910
BOLT, FLANGE (6X40) 96001-06040-00

$10 for parts, like $15 for shipping...sheesh!!
Try living in New Zealand, shipping those few parts over here would easily be US$50!!

I'm trying to get a seal/gasket kit for my carb, seal kit is like $15 from partzilla and shipping ALONE for that small and measly plastic bag is just over $50... Crazy!

Top writeup a few posts back eclarke. Pretty cool to see you passing on some bits to Mr J to have a play with too ;)

You'll be quite safe with the holes in the airbox and the upjet supplied with the kit Polish, just take it reeeeal easy on the break in. I got on mine too hard too early on and have soft seized it ONCE. I got lucky as mine still runs and pulls fine but sounds less than ideal when idling/running.

Will probably ride it till it finally dies(no doubt miles from home)but will definitely get another BBK and do things 100% properly next time round. May even replicate eclarkes setup based on his findings with the pod and polini :ndance:

Re: Getting the Tazland BBK, GEARS, + MLM ran on a dyno

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 3:42 am
by MrJumps
Very cool of him indeed, if the bore is still running strong ill do testing with that idle jet for taz and start trying out pipes. Can we make this an duel thread? BBK WITH pod and aftermarket carb vs bbk with stock upgraded carb, stock airbox, and if you want we can make duped pipes and see whoch one compares. A certain angle with wings threw me a offer for a noice pipe that needs some fabbing to fit the spree but would probably run okay in the high end but have very little low end.