Honda Spree and Elite 50 Forums

Seems OK now. Guess it was either more dirt in the valve or maybe the wrong fuel filter. My homemade "manual bystarter" also seems to be working well. When the weather turns colder, I suspect it'll let me know if I did good . Thanks again, guys, for all the help.

i'm a new owner of an 86' spree. Great condition but cold starts and runs well but won't idle. Hard to start after a ride. Is this a bystarter issue or carb issue?
pk

PK: Dirty carb, plugged idle jet.

Manual bystarter: I'd wondered if you could clamp an insert into the bystarter hole with a bolt through it, with the broken bystarter needle screwed to the end. Then you would just screw the needle down once you got warmed up. Is that what you did? Only thing to watch would be vacuum leaks.

Close, Noiseguy. I machined an aluminum plug the diameter of the bystarter, with grooves for the o-ring and clamp, and a recess for the barrel to slide up and into. Then I machined a needle/barrel combo (one piece) that a long screw goes in the top of. The screw has a locknut with a tiny o-ring just below it, and fits thru a snug fit hole thru the center of the "plug." The small o-ring is pushed into a snug fit counter sunk hole by the lock nut that is adjusted to coincide with the needle?barrel seating in it's place to close the airflow. Then, from top to bottom "kabobed" on the screw, we have the screw head (handle), lock nut, tiny o-ring, plug with it's bystarter o-ring, and the barrel/needle. All machining was done on a lathe, but if you're patient enough, you might be able to do it with a vise held 1/2" drill motor, emory cloth, and frequent measurement.

To start, pull the screw up, pulling the needle/barrel out of it's "socket," and the o-ring out of it's. The air will now leak thru the hole and into the carb. As it warms up, push the screw down so that the needle/barrel seats in place, and sealing the (screw) hole with the tiny o-ring that is pushed into the countersunk hole by the locknut on top.

This gizmo could probably be made simpler and better. My goal was for a quick solution...........not a masterpiece . Had to eliminate the problem so I could get on with diagnosing the others. If the thing still works well when cold weather arrives, I'll install a choke cable on the screw so I can replace the engine cover on the left side. and operate this "choke" from between my legs. Then, I'll start making a bunch of them, sell them to all you guys, and retire wealthy .

davcon that manual bystarter sounds awesome, when you go into full production let me get in on the IPO

do you have a picture of it you could post??

Yep, that's what I envisioned. I wasn't sure how you'd get the manual choke screw pin to seal against the plug. These would indeed be useful, I think the price of a new bystarter is over $50, so as long as you're under that...

As a diagnostic tool, it's actually worth more than the $50.

I've still got half the fuel line empty, it still runs forever. Optical illusion.

Wait! You guys are serious? I was just being my typical "ol smartazz self . Being new to this board, I would have thought somebody would have solved this deal long ago. Maybe after the cold arrives and I've got confidence in it...................we'll see. No camera = no pics. Maybe I can find a neighborhood kid to snap some...............then you guys can talk me thru posting them. Wow! Mom always thought I'd be famous .

You have to remember that most site members don't have ready access to machining tools. I have access to a machine shop and welders, but don't have space for them at home. I'd actually like a picture of it so that I can archive it along with the description of how you made it. There are several rarer Honda scoots which have bystarters no longer in production. This would get them back on the road.

Since you do, you can actually do the pulley mod and shave the head on yours with little fanfare. This becomes a real problem when you have to pay $40 a pop to get anything done.

This might interest you. The machinist I worked with on the head chucked it into a lathe using the spark plug hole to turn it down, rather than using a mill. The machine marks are thus circular. Nice looking. Couldn't get the head to sit flat in the mill. Not sure if this is a common way to do it, but it worked well for us.

That's quite common for single/cyl heads. Use to race go-karts (2 sons)and that was the popular way to shave the head. I prefer to use a mill for that...............less flex. You have to shim up the top surface (now on the bottom).

I have a pretty complete machine shop at home..................2 lathes, 3 mills, 2 bandsaws, etc, etc, etc. Used to race sports cars and collected up these machines for convenience. Kinda fell in love with "doing violent things to metal" .

BTW, you can "mill" a Spree head ( or any small engine head) by using sandpaper taped face up on a flat surface. Just carefully rub the surface across the sandpaper, taking frequent measurements of your results.

When I get all my engine performance problems solved, I am planning to do the "pully thing," and probably some front end stability work. But from reading on this site, I was under the impression that milling the head didn't produce noticable results. Maybe I should re-read some. All my engine mod knowledge is on 4-strokes. Even the karts we raced were 4-cycle. All I know about 2-strokes is enough to keep my weed-eater running . I have to rely on you guys here to hip me to what works on the scoot.

There's a lot of argument, confusion, and wild claims about what does and does not work. In fact, one of the major early contributors at this site was of the firm opinion that nothing could be done to make these faster. If you call a scooter shop about this, they will tell you the same thing. And the complete lack of aftermarket parts underlines this as well.

One of the reasons I started this site was to 1) Get Spree back on the road 2) Figure out how to make them faster.

All the confusion is pretty typical of just about any pursuit; I'm sure you ran into a lot of this racing.

Bottom line, this is a 2-stroke scoot with a fixed pulley. It has low compression (115 PSI), tiny ports (19mm diam exhaust with short degree timing on intake/exh), an intake restriction (manifold at carb), weak spark (conjecture at this point) and an untuned exhaust. Did I mention the fixed pulley? If you make it "faster," you lose "quicker," unless you also fix the low end grunt.

Here's my checklist for a high-po Spree mill, from intake to exhaust. I'm going to leave specifics to searching Perf Tech. I've tried all of these and think they're worthwhile:

1) Remove intake manifold, dremel out intake near carb interface. There's a restriction here. Alternately get an 85-87 Aero or SE50 intake which bolts up and does not have this restriction (I'm told)

2) Mill the head between .015" - .020". Later Spree had flat pistons and can be milled more. Earlier ones had a dish, which seems to hurt them. You can get about 130 PSI this way, more if you mill more and clearance the head.

3) Build an expansion chamber. Pocketbike chambers are tuned to about 10K RPM, are cheap at $20 shipped on Ebay, and work pretty well using the stock downpipe;

4) Mill the pulley (pulley mod.) Every .001" increases top speed by about 1 MPH, assuming you have the torque. May need new belt.

TBD: Stuff I'm going to try:

5) Aftermarket ignition. MSD Blaster SS coil, P/N 8207. About $50

6) Changing port timing on the stock jug/bore. Current is 142 deg exhaust and 104 deg intake, which is kindof weak. I'm thinking more like 180/150. Stay tuned.

7) Find a fricking OS piston for this thing. 63 - 65mm with a 10mm wristpin. Compression height of 20-25mm (need to measure)? They're got to be out there somewhere, I just need to find a source...

Get some heavier clutch spring to move RPM engagement up. This is to counteract the pulley mod and the fact that with the expansion chamber I need to engage at a higher RPM. I'm having a ridiculously hard time sourcing these locally as well.

Whew

double post....................sorry .

Quite a "to-do" list. Theoretically speaking, all the mods you list will add to acceleration (torque), except for the pully mod. When I get inside the drive system, I might see an opportunity for possibly a variable sheave, giving both more top end WITHOUT sacrificiing acceleration. Just hoping at this point.

Again, I don't have 2-stroke experience so what I write is only from 4-stroke point-of-view. Did the intake mod and am getting 34mph. But,with a small displacement single cyl. motor, shaving the head a few thou can't make noticable difference. If you're racing against other "stock" Sprees, especially on a fast course, this little mod will be a major advantage. But just tooting around the "hood" I can't see where this'll be meaningful. Same with the ignition upgrade.

When going thru tech inspection at the kart races, the 2-strokes were carefully scrutinized at the exhaust end of things. The guys all told me that the exhaust was most important of all on a 2-stroke. With that in mind, the expansion chamber seems likely to pay off well, esp. after "wallerin' out the intake and (maybe) a bit more jetting. Port timing I know nothing about...........................need to learn more. THe clutch mod might not be needed if the variable sheave deal works out, but I'll keep that handy if the power increase from all the other things demand it.

That brings us down to the OS piston. Why not just make one? It ain't really rocket science. A lathe, a mill, and a couple of nites of a BAD TV schedule should do it . How much room is there to bore the cyl.? Is the port timing dependant on bore size? This is an area that has possibilities, but where my 2-cyle ignorance can get me in deep poo-poo .

Wow!............look at me . Here I am thinking about modifying a 50 CC scooter that was designed for a kid to putt around the neighborhood on. Seems like we should be discussing doing all this work on something that might have a bigger payoff. Oh well, sometimes it's the challenge..................I guess.

Davcon wrote:That brings us down to the OS piston. Why not just make one? It ain't really rocket science. A lathe, a mill, and a couple of nites of a BAD TV schedule should do it . How much room is there to bore the cyl.? Is the port timing dependant on bore size? This is an area that has possibilities, but where my 2-cyle ignorance can get me in deep poo-poo .

Wow!............look at me . Here I am thinking about modifying a 50 CC scooter that was designed for a kid to putt around the neighborhood on. Seems like we should be discussing doing all this work on something that might have a bigger payoff. Oh well, sometimes it's the challenge..................I guess.

Make a piston. Funny, that's what my machinist here said too. Stock is 41mm (stroke 37.4), I think you could get a 45 - 47mm piston in before you shaved the walls too close. You would, at this point, need to check and probably refile the ports. A 47mm overbore would definately move them. You can buy overbore kits that have a close piston (Vision kits have right size pin and stroke); the compression height and bottom port interface will be wrong though. At $100-200, it depends on whether you have more money or more time. I've been trying to come up with mods that anyone can do. I thought making your own piston might be pushing it. If you want to pursue this, I can give you some pointers.

I realized a while ago that it's always the challenge. My buddy was running a Corvette Z06 against a couple of guys at Milan that had built up some comparatively wicked LT1 Camaros. With his Z06 (and no drag experience,) he was turning in the same times. The guys asked what he did to his car to make it so fast, he responds "nothing, it's stock." They were shocked. Response from them? "We're wasting our time." They probably had as much or more into the Camaro's than the Corvette was worth at the time.

My goal was/is to get the most speed possible from the stock Spree mill, as a learning experience. Easier/faster way is to run down a '94+ Elite 50 plant. For $500 plus the plant, you can get 70MPH, as several members are doing or in the process of doing. But I've learned a lot about expansion pipes and porting in the mean time, and I (think I've) taught a lot of others a thing or two about working on their own bikes. That was a primary goal.

BTW, I don't think you'll find a variator that fits the stock crank; the Spree crank is really short. Check the variator on the Honda Express, reportedly very narrow.

i have talked to a few place and asked if a crank off anything else will fit well. my response was no. so if fitting a variator it looks like you are on your own to machine one and make a custome one. or you could alse get a small variator equipped engine crank and try to make it fit by machining the cases. but then thecrankcase cover will not fit and the clutch probably will not align.

so the moral is if going to this extent, you could just buy a blown elite engine and fix it, and fit it.

older se engines are very easy to find and also very cheap. they have a few mods you can buy for them and are variator equipped.

I dunno, Noiseguy....................Vette 76 makes some sense...............the more I think about it, the more I'm coming to my senses When this little motor is running right, it runs really well..............................not strong, just "well." I'm gonna keep shaking the bugs out of this one.......... then, maybe look into the pully or sheave thing. If the variable sheave is possible, I gotta think there's more bang for the buck there, than all the other mods combined. Potentially, it could be the "everyman's mod" you seek. Do you know the old sayin' about gears? "If you use enough gears, you can make a sewing machine motor pull a freight train." Been fun thinking about all this, though . We'll see where it leads...................................