Hello & Getting my Spree Running

[jong]

Hey Everyone,

Thought I'd introduce myself since I'll probably be on these forums a bit. My name is Jon and I live in Milwaukee, WI. I just picked up a Honda Spree (for free) and I'm going to spend the winter months (it's cold) getting it ready for spring and summer. I used to frequent the Toyota Supra forums a lot in my younger years. I went to school for Automotive diagnostics and repair (T-TEN). I also worked in the automotive industry as a Toyota technician repairing engines and performing electric diagnostics. Having this knowledge may help me a bit in this endeavor, although most of the stuff I did was on electrically managed engines. Unfortunately, I never really had a chance to dive into carbs a lot. I understand how they operate, but I'm admittedly not as fluent as I might have been years ago.

So, anyways. I have this Spree. I got it for free (so obviously it doesn't run).

With some persistence, I can get it to run momentarily before it konks out.

I tore off the covers and found the idle speed and air-mix screws turned WAY out. (idle speed was out 5 turns, air mix was out 3.5). I set them to factory, and tried some quick manipulation, only to find out the culprit was elsewhere.

This is what IÔÇÖve done today.

- Pulled the spark plug, fouled. Mostly oil and unburnt gas. Replaced w/ new one.
- Checked the air-filter. Seems clean.
- Pulled off the carb, inspected all the needles and jets, did some cleaning. I made sure the float was working. Everything was really clean in the carb, I made sure all the tiny little holes were clear as well.
- Pulled the reed valve ÔÇô also seems fine.
- All gaskets were good. No noticeable cracks, leaks, etc.

I did notice, at this point, that someone else had been here. There were little blue sharpie marks under the grease. I assume someone had tore this thing apart before and used a sharpie to help remember which hose went where. I also noticed the bleed tube on the bottom of the carb bowl was disconnected.

Put everything back together, made sure the oil line was free of bubbles and then primed the carb.

I checked the operation of the auto-fuel valve. Using my calibrated mouth-vacuum tool, I applied a vacuum and gas flowed. Released vacuum and flow stopped. I also did my best to hold a consistent vacuum (using my tongue to keep the vacuum within the hose) and did not notice any decline in flow rate. My suspicion is that the auto-fuel valve is working fine.

I checked all the electrical components I could see and verified the connections as well as the status of the fuse. All ok. This thing is actually in pretty decent shape (hardly any corrosion to the frame and bolts)

I put it back together (except the body) and tuned it to stock for an 86.

I set the idle-speed screw to 2 turns out.

I set the air-mix screw to 1 › turns out.

Jumped it, let the battery soak up a charge for a bit, and then cranked it over. Surprisingly it ran. Wonderfully I might add I hit the IG-cut and stopped the engine so I could just double check for leaks.

Everything was okay. So I tried to start it again nothing.

It hasnÔÇÖt run well since. I can get it to idle for about 20 seconds at most. IÔÇÖve been playing around w/ the idle-speed and air-mix screws ( not being too aggressive) and still no luck.

I made sure the carb was getting fuel and re-primed it a few times by applying vacuum to the auto-fuel valve and opening the drain on the carb, closing the drain, still applying vac. for a few seconds yet, and then reattaching the vac. line.

Still nothing.

Any suggestions from the proÔÇÖs?


My questions are..

-- the electric choke.. I havent ruled this out yet is there any quick ways for diagnostics? I found some stuff online w/ applying voltage and checking the resistance, but I havent messed with it yet.

-- What do you have your screws set to? I realize every engine is different, but I cant find anything in the manual that specifies how many turns to give the idle-speed and a tach is useless if I cant get it to idle. Just through observation, it looks as though my idle-speed screw adjusts the throttle between 0 and 2 turns.. after that it doesnt change the throttle position.

-- Ethanol. The gas here in WI has between 12-20% ethanol. Would that do it? Right now IÔÇÖm running 87 regular and although I canÔÇÖt readily here any pinging, I know the differences octane can make in sensitive engines. Just a thought.


Pics attached.

Thanks in advance!!

[jong]

Oh, I'm going to check compression soon as well. thought I'd mention that before someone calls me on it.

[jong]

Another interesting note...

I let it sit for an hour (w/o touching anything from the last time). I went down, kick started it, and it started first try.

Idled for about 2 minutes. During that time I noticed some things.

I covered up the air-inlets on the air-filter housing. I didn't get quite the vacuum I was expecting, although I did notice a slight draw of air. No large change in idle when air-inlet holes were covered up versus not-covered-up.

When I release the rear-brake, boy does that thing TAKE OFF. I didn't ride it, it stayed up on the kick-stand, but it rev's pretty high w/o touching the throttle. this is w/ the idle-speed screw set at 2-turns out.. (basically the lowest setting)... Air leak maybe?

I was also able to throttle the engine up without too much problem. (usually when I open the throttle it dies and makes that signiture "booggggggg" sound). I could throttle the engine up to WOT and listened to the engine speed. It really tapered off to a slow acceleration as the engine speed max'd out. Definitely not as quick as I would imagine it would be w/ just the drivetrain loading it.

Anyways, after playing around, I hit the brake, and let it idle some more... until it eventually died.


I was never any good at "smelling" how an engine is running, so without a wideband, I couldn't really tell ya. Although, what I'm smelling doesn't smell normal. Smells like a burning plastic bag.. sorta bitter smell. Certainly not one that I'm used to.

[odinxxix]

Hello,and welcome to the board, ok lets see what i can do for ya,get ready to read. the smell i cant put my finger..err nose on. as for the compression test, 114 psi is what the manual calls for as a min.
2. although your carb looks clean do it again X2. if you look inside(from the top) you will see that ity bity hole that needs to be free and clear(idle circut). get a #13 guitar string or equilivant to push thru but it wotn go all the way. after the top poke turn over and go at it from the bottom., may i suggest a carb dip or laquer thinner to soak in for a few hours.
3. you may have an air leak do to removeing the intake, try a thin gasket sealant or replace gaskets.
4 air filter you stated looked clean, it needs to be oiled as well.
5. idle screw needs to be 1 1/2 turns out from seat.
pull you plug and look at it if its fouled replace,it should be a tan/cardboard color.
6.dont forget the throttle adjustment,it only needs 1/8 to 1/4 inch of play i would adjust that before you reset you idle screw.
7. get a good quaility 2 stroke injector oil(GN-2) your local motorsports shop is a good place to get that. some use cstrol 2t,i think there is amisol as well.
8. higer octane wont do any better unless you go big bore and even then its not needed.
9. put some seafoam in your tank with fill up(about 2-3 capfuls) this will help clean the carbon from the piston and cylinder head. i use it with every fill up but its your choice.
10. remember its cold so if you start it and it runs good then you shut it off an sit for a few and the restart, it may not fire up unless its wot, the engine is warmer the the bystarter so in a sense it choking it out, its fine hold it wot start the let off the throttle.
11. have fun and enjoy your spree.!!

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

First, congratulations on the Spree. Also please accept my compliments for a very well-reasoned diagnostic checklist.
Now to bidness:

Checked the air-filter. Seems clean.

I would get that air filter out for another look. The way it behaved - running well for several minutes then failing to start again, then starting up, sort of... suggests the element is reverting to the Primordial Petroleum Ooze from whence it came. Mine stopped suddenly when it inhaled a chunk of this foam, which promptly jammed a reed in the Open position. Mine started right back up again, however when I got home the source of the obstruction was clear from the missing chunks in the filter foam. Just a thought.

Also I recommend swapping to another new plug. As you tune, you may go through a few of these. Buy a box...

[jong]

odinxxix, Thanks for your response. I'm going to print that off and double check everything you've listed. I may clean the carb again, although I did see that tiny hole you are talking about and I made sure it was clear, I'll make sure again (good thing I have extra guitar strings, lol).

Wheelman-111, I was thinking the same thing. I checked the air filter twice now, and nothing is falling apart and it seems to bounce-back when squished, but I think I'm going to clean it and re-oil it at least. For the most part the filter seems to be in good shape. As for the spark-plug, that's not a bad idea. I'll pick some more up.

I'll probably re-post later when i make more discoveries. lol.

Thanks again everyone!

[jong]

Hello again,

Okay, worked on it for a few hours tonight. Here's some new stuff for ya.

After cleaning the air filter and lubing it up again, I noticed there is one little patch where the filter is decaying. I managed to brush off most of the loose stuff and still leave most of the filter intact. So I'm hunting for a new filter if anyone has a good supplier they recommend.

Anyways, for diagnostic purposes, I thought I'd use the old filter for the time being. I installed the filter good-side down and made sure there was a good seal all the way around the box.. don't want any crumblies falling in there.

So, I tried starting it.

Fired right up. First try. and in continued to exhibit the following symptoms tonight after I thoroughly diagnosed the Auto-Fuel shut off (again), the fuel line, AFSO-vac. line, various needle adjustments, the throttle cable (which was WAY too tight), and other things.

*keep in mind, i have no reference for engine speed, the numbers are all by calibrated-ear to help me explain the symptoms. Imaginitive range of 0 - 1000rpm. ( lol )Please bear w/ me.

After sitting.. Cold start.
Starts easily. Like brand new. Idles solidly at 400 when the rear-brake is applied. When I remove the rear brake, it revs seemingly WAY too high  800rpm then it starts to come down to back around 400 after 30 seconds, at which point it starts to quickly descend to 100 rpm where it struggles for life in a sin-wave rpm fluctuation fashion  gradually increasing and decreasing between 50  150 rpm, until it dies after about 1-1:30 min of running.

Let sit for 30 seconds. Try to start engine. Does not fire. Takes about 4 ÔÇô 6 attempts before it begins to show signs of life. ( this is electric start mind you ( yes, iÔÇÖm being very careful not to burn out the starter))

Eventually itll kick back to life, but nothing like the first time.. Itll idle steady at 200 rpms, right about where is sounds like a healthy idle this is w/ the brake depressed this will last for about 20 seconds before it starts oscillating rpms again. Itll vary between 200  250 very slowly, but gradually getting faster before it plumepts arruptly.

Try restarting. Same thing, wonÔÇÖt restart.

After a few minutes. It does the same thing. Runs.. oscillates.. dies quickly (almost like the kill switch being flipped, that quickly, but muddy-sounding, like itÔÇÖs bogging out quickly)
SO

I pulled the carb again to bring inside, inspect and clean. Noticed a few things

-- This thing sat long enough for gasoline to evaporate and leave a crusty, flaky layer in the bottom of the bowl. A good source of the problem perhaps? ThatÔÇÖll need to be cleaned.. any recommendations?

-- There is an open breather port that stems into the bowl Why is this left open? Contamination station.

I noticed the Float-valve has a bit of play when its engaged into the float. Is this normal? I would expect a snug fit for accuracy

Anyways, here are some pics.


Thanks again!

- jon

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

It sure sounds as if it runs well only on the open Bystarter circuit. When the bystarter begins to close, your idle issues arise. It restarts properly again only after the Bystarter has had the chance to cool completely and return to the "On" position. This suggests that the idle circuit is still obstructed. That tiny pinhole of Legend...

By all means, clean the brown sludge from the bowl completely. Honda-san is the best source for a new air filter. Spec idle RPM is 1800, and your clutch should be completely disengaged at that speed. If you don't have a Tach, you're only guessing, but the engine would stall long before 150 RPM even in perfect tune. As a guide, you should be able to stop the rear wheel from turning using only one finger on the tire. You pick the finger.

The Carb must be vented in order for fluid to be able to flow into the bowl. Some carb brands add a hose to the vent port to decrease dirt entry potential but it doesn't seem to be much of an issue. The float needle is loosely held in the "claws" of the float, but must be correctly engaged therein. See the excellent carb disassembly thread photos for an example. There are several ways to screw up float assembly, so take your time to look and think.

[jong]

Awesome!

It sure sounds as if it runs well only on the open Bystarter circuit. When the bystarter begins to close, your idle issues arise. It restarts properly again only after the Bystarter has had the chance to cool completely and return to the "On" position. This suggests that the idle circuit is still obstructed.

Excellent theory. Makes sense. I also was thinking (because my fuel line has a section that looks pretty frayed), I've seen carb engines do strange things when there is a pin-hole in the fuel line.. the fuel pressure isn't large enough to actually drip fuel, but when the carb starts suckin the gas, it also starts to suck air through the pin-hole.. causing idle fluctuations and eventually stall. (i'm going to just replace the whole fuel line anyways, it looks too old to trust). I'm also gonna clean this carb the best I can.

but the engine would stall long before 150 RPM even in perfect tune

Yeah, I was just using those rpm numbers to illustrate my point, I know this little bugger is rev'n a lot higher than 150 rpm. haha..

The Carb must be vented in order for fluid to be able to flow into the bowl. Some carb brands add a hose to the vent port to decrease dirt entry potential but it doesn't seem to be much of an issue. The float needle is loosely held in the "claws" of the float, but must be correctly engaged therein.

That's what I was thinking - the bowl needed to breathe... air has to go somewhere when a fluid is filling up a container. I'm going to look more closely at this float-valve and how to properly install it... i may have missed something before.

THANKS!!!

[odinxxix]

i concour with wheelman, idle is 1800+/- 100,definetly get that brown spooge out of the carb bowl,did you remove the main jet and clean in there as well? make sure that main is clean!! and try DGY.com for your filter if you dont have a motorsports shop near you.

[jong]

Great News!

I cleaned out the carb w/ carb-cleaner and removed all that crud from the bottom of the bowl. I also cleaned out all the little tubes and ports on it as well. I replaced the fuel line because it looked old.

Got it all assembled, primed the carb, and it fired first try - effortlessly. It continued to run without a problem all night. I even made a few laps around my parking garage.

One thing I did notice though...

It accelerates pretty well at WOT. However, when I apply about 1/3 or 1/2 throttle it seems to chug a bit and almost stall... maybe 200 lbs is too much for it?

Otherwise it's awesome! I'm looking forward to some mods.

[odinxxix]

Glad to hear it up and running , mods a few but tazlannd001(marc) does have the 44mm bbk and a 47mm in the works,his gears i hear are nice,i dont have a set as of yet but working on it. you can also change to a larger tire(2.75X10) and it will give you a gear change and a little more step. replace your belt if you havent done so already it makes a huge difference. there is also a pulley mod that can be done with mixed results, i have the pulley modded but not installed yet as its 5 degrees here so spring time look out. keep us posted and if you pics of your bike post them in the pics section.

[jong]

awesome! Will do. Thanks!!

I've been browsing the forums and other websites for different performance parts / mods..... I doubt I'll do anything past exhaust (if that). My biggest goal right now is maintenence (air filter, belt, tires, etc).

After that, i really want to make this thing look less 80's.... I'm going to start by removing that god-aweful basket and blinkers that stick out 4-feet from either side. haha..

We'll see....

[mash]

Sounds like fun Jong, nice to see that you got her running.
Mike

[jong]

Okay. Update time.

I will have pics soon.

After I cleaned the carb and got all that maintenance stuff out of the way, I decided to do a little electrical modding. I replaced the brake light, front, and rear blinkers. All LED now. Looks sharp!

However, I have runability problems again. :/ I made a point to run it at least twice a week as it sat in the garage. I'd fire it up, maybe make a few laps in the parking garage, got it warm and then shut it off. It seemed to be running fine. But now that it's getting nicer outside I took it out for a few trips in the fresh air... it does not want to cooperate.

I have the carb screws set to factory. Brand new air filter. New plug. (see above)

On a flat road or downhill it doesn't have much of a problem moving, but when I try to go up the slightlest incline.. it just bogs down and tries to stall.. it's lacking any sort of real torque. It also seems to have lost it's peppy'ness "off the line"

I'm wondering. Maybe I over saturated ( or didn't saturate enough) the new air filter with oil?

Maybe I need to swap the plug again?

I'm bewildered. It was running fine about a month ago. I fiddled with the screws more, but ultimately put them back to stock after I couldn't get any decent results.


I'm about to tear it apart again I suppose... anyone have any ideas or tips before I start diagnosing?